How far can modification go before Insurance is affected?
Discussion
I suggest a lot of Kit Cars are altered, amended, extended and improved regularly throughout their life. Experiments are always being made with new wheels, exhausts, ECU's, Injection etc etc.
Certainly mine are every week of every year.
Now this MUST have a relevance to the requirement to inform the insurance company of every alteration to the car.
But how far can I go without being concerned?
Would fitting a K + N filter? I think not?
Would fitting a high efficiency (noisy) exhaust? I wonder? It might.
Would changing all the suspension? I think it would.
Would fitting a new engine of a different size or output? Almost certainly.
But what are the rules? Are there rules? That is my question.
Certainly mine are every week of every year.
Now this MUST have a relevance to the requirement to inform the insurance company of every alteration to the car.
But how far can I go without being concerned?
Would fitting a K + N filter? I think not?
Would fitting a high efficiency (noisy) exhaust? I wonder? It might.
Would changing all the suspension? I think it would.
Would fitting a new engine of a different size or output? Almost certainly.
But what are the rules? Are there rules? That is my question.
I think unless they specifically ask you at the time of taking out insurance they will not know what you have done to the car that would be different, as they did not know what it was like beforehand! Obviously bolting turbos on etc is a no no but I have never told insurers about any changes and they have never asked. Even when claiming. If they ask for a photograph on inception then if you do anything drastic to it later maybe a good idea to send in a more recent picure.
Out of curiosity...
Why are the English so obsessed with insurance? In oz we have 3rd party compulsary which is around the 300GBP mark per annum and covers you for smashing into someone or something. It is based on no claim, age of car, age of driver, area etc. But its roughly the same where ever you go.
I read this forum a bit and get practicle classics magazine and insurance is a major factor in purchasing the car. Seems odd to me.
Why are the English so obsessed with insurance? In oz we have 3rd party compulsary which is around the 300GBP mark per annum and covers you for smashing into someone or something. It is based on no claim, age of car, age of driver, area etc. But its roughly the same where ever you go.
I read this forum a bit and get practicle classics magazine and insurance is a major factor in purchasing the car. Seems odd to me.
dmulally said:
Out of curiosity...
Why are the English so obsessed with insurance? In oz we have 3rd party compulsary which is around the 300GBP mark per annum and covers you for smashing into someone or something. It is based on no claim, age of car, age of driver, area etc. But its roughly the same where ever you go.
I read this forum a bit and get practicle classics magazine and insurance is a major factor in purchasing the car. Seems odd to me.
Because insurance in england is in general considerably more expensive than in australia. Due to the compulsory nature of insurance here companies have ramped up the prices. Road tax over here does not include any form of insurance as registration fees do in australia, insurance in australia is optional so companies keep the premiums competative to encourage people to get it. I the uk it is compulsory (unless you can provide the relevant bond to the high court) and the higher premiums reflect this.Why are the English so obsessed with insurance? In oz we have 3rd party compulsary which is around the 300GBP mark per annum and covers you for smashing into someone or something. It is based on no claim, age of car, age of driver, area etc. But its roughly the same where ever you go.
I read this forum a bit and get practicle classics magazine and insurance is a major factor in purchasing the car. Seems odd to me.
For a kit car there is no such thing as a standard car so premiums are based on the spec given to the insurance company. This also means that when you change the spec of your car your are not modifying it. If you change the engine size then you would need to inform the insurance company as it would change your premium but most other things would not. The engine output is unlikely to have any affect on the premium as there is unlikely to be a stated engine size and power output for a kit car in the way a production car would. Unlike a standard production car where there is a standard specification for each model.
This is also why specialist insurers are generally better for kit cars as they understand them better than a general insurer.
When I spoke to manufacturer of the kit I will be building I was told that the insurer of the previous demonstrator was not interested that the engine was turbo charged or upgraded to produce 320bHp they were only interested in its size (2 litres).
This is also why specialist insurers are generally better for kit cars as they understand them better than a general insurer.
When I spoke to manufacturer of the kit I will be building I was told that the insurer of the previous demonstrator was not interested that the engine was turbo charged or upgraded to produce 320bHp they were only interested in its size (2 litres).
Edited by Broken on Tuesday 22 February 01:22
Broken said:
Because insurance in england is in general considerably more expensive than in australia. Due to the compulsory nature of insurance here companies have ramped up the prices. Road tax over here does not include any form of insurance as registration fees do in australia, insurance in australia is optional so companies keep the premiums competative to encourage people to get it. I the uk it is compulsory (unless you can provide the relevant bond to the high court) and the higher premiums reflect this.
Our road tax doesnt include insurance. That is separate and you cant get road tax until you show you have paid the insurance. Seems like we have kinda the same deal. For 12 months rego where I am you need a pink slip (our MOT) and you also need compulsary 3rd party insurance which covers you for crashing into someone but it doesnt cover you for theft. To get your 12 months sticker you need to have the insurance. Then you need to pay road tax on top of that which is roughly the same price. I registered my modified 68 Mustang last month and it was around 600GBP. My stock standard 2003 Xsara VTR is roughly the same.
Is that roughly what you guys would pay over there?
dmulally said:
In oz we have 3rd party compulsary which is around the 300GBP mark per annum and covers you for smashing into someone or something. It is based on no claim, age of car, age of driver, area etc. But its roughly the same where ever you go.
I read this forum a bit and get practicle classics magazine and insurance is a major factor in purchasing the car. Seems odd to me.
Not from what I recall. It covers personal injury, not property, which is included in your yearly rego (road tax). If you crash into a Bentley, the Government will not pay out!I read this forum a bit and get practicle classics magazine and insurance is a major factor in purchasing the car. Seems odd to me.
You can then get 3rd party insurance from an insurance company, which will cover for you crashing into a Bentley.
http://www.aami.com.au/car-insurance/third-party-p...
Broken said:
Because insurance in england is in general considerably more expensive than in australia. Due to the compulsory nature of insurance here companies have ramped up the prices...
Sorry to be blunt, but that's rubbish. ASFAIK NO motor insurer is actually making a profit on their motor book.
Insurance prices have shot up because the cost of claims has rocketed.
I thought this topic would be interesting.
Several points.
Firstly lets try to get a handle on what constitutes a notifable modification.
I think relying on the fact that no one actually knows the specification of a car is fraught with difficulty.
For example
Does an engine change from a 1.3 Ford crossflow to a 1.6 Zetec?
Undoubtedly. More power more speed bigger engine. MUST be notifiable
Does an engine change from an A series to a K series?
Undoubtedly. More power more speed bigger engine. MUST be notifiable.
Does a colur change?
I think so because it should be reported to the DVLA.
Indeed surely ANY material change should be recorded at the DVLA and your insurers.
But I am looking for the actual experience of others.
Does a colour change require
Doos
Several points.
Firstly lets try to get a handle on what constitutes a notifable modification.
I think relying on the fact that no one actually knows the specification of a car is fraught with difficulty.
For example
Does an engine change from a 1.3 Ford crossflow to a 1.6 Zetec?
Undoubtedly. More power more speed bigger engine. MUST be notifiable
Does an engine change from an A series to a K series?
Undoubtedly. More power more speed bigger engine. MUST be notifiable.
Does a colur change?
I think so because it should be reported to the DVLA.
Indeed surely ANY material change should be recorded at the DVLA and your insurers.
But I am looking for the actual experience of others.
Does a colour change require
Doos
Insurance has gone up because of the amount of personal claims going on... about 2 years ago I had my M3 written off, it was parked in the pub car park and I was having a pint inside.
After I was paid out by the other cars insurance I started getting calls from these bloody companies asking if I wanted to make a personal injury claim!
Its discusting and making a bad economy worse!
As for insurance of a Kit... unless you disclose the exact details and power of the car then I think anything is open to change without a premium rise except power out, engine type/size and value.
Upgrading the shocks and brakes etc shouldn't be an issue as you don't tell them what you have normally so the premium already assumes a high spec?
After I was paid out by the other cars insurance I started getting calls from these bloody companies asking if I wanted to make a personal injury claim!
Its discusting and making a bad economy worse!
As for insurance of a Kit... unless you disclose the exact details and power of the car then I think anything is open to change without a premium rise except power out, engine type/size and value.
Upgrading the shocks and brakes etc shouldn't be an issue as you don't tell them what you have normally so the premium already assumes a high spec?
FWIW....I informed the insurance & DVLA when swapping from a Xflow to Zetec engine in the Westy, but not when I fitted TBs & injection to the Xflow.
I informed them both when I went from a 2l to a 3l engine in the Corse, and the insurance when I fitted a supercharger. They asked me to estimate the power of the new supercharged engine. Put about £40 on the premium IIRC.
I didn't inform anyone when fitting better rear struts to the Corse - couldn't see any reason to as the ones I fitted are specified for the original.
It's a big grey area really I suppose, but to be safe, if in doubt, tell them everything. If they don't wnt to know, fine, if they do, and you don't tell them, good luck should you ever have the misfortune to need to claim.
I informed them both when I went from a 2l to a 3l engine in the Corse, and the insurance when I fitted a supercharger. They asked me to estimate the power of the new supercharged engine. Put about £40 on the premium IIRC.
I didn't inform anyone when fitting better rear struts to the Corse - couldn't see any reason to as the ones I fitted are specified for the original.
It's a big grey area really I suppose, but to be safe, if in doubt, tell them everything. If they don't wnt to know, fine, if they do, and you don't tell them, good luck should you ever have the misfortune to need to claim.
A modification is something changed from the standard.
As there is no such thing as a standard kitcar you only need notify.....
The insurer of anything different from the information they asked for (or you told them) when you set up the policy.
The DVLA of anything different to the information in any of the V5c boxes.
Steve
As there is no such thing as a standard kitcar you only need notify.....
The insurer of anything different from the information they asked for (or you told them) when you set up the policy.
The DVLA of anything different to the information in any of the V5c boxes.
Steve
smack said:
Not from what I recall. It covers personal injury, not property, which is included in your yearly rego (road tax). If you crash into a Bentley, the Government will not pay out!
You can then get 3rd party insurance from an insurance company, which will cover for you crashing into a Bentley.
http://www.aami.com.au/car-insurance/third-party-p...
Im glad somebody knows whats going on round hereYou can then get 3rd party insurance from an insurance company, which will cover for you crashing into a Bentley.
http://www.aami.com.au/car-insurance/third-party-p...
;-)
I suppose my interest come4s from seeing so many clearly modified cars that are actually insured as base models to get a cheap premium.
For example
Minis which have 1340cc A+++ engines in a car registered `still as a 998cc car and advertised as such by the seller.
Ford Popular with a 3.5 V8 engine still registered as an unmodified 1173 wheezy sidevalve powered car and advertised as such by the seller.
Dutton Melos fitted with a 3.9litre V8 Landrover engine with fuel injection still registered as a 1.3 car offered by the seller with the current V5
All of these could not be regarded as correctly registered or insured.
I wonder why the drivers think this is a safe way to carry on. In the case of the Melos it still had drum brakes all round. Can you imagine the danger??
For example
Minis which have 1340cc A+++ engines in a car registered `still as a 998cc car and advertised as such by the seller.
Ford Popular with a 3.5 V8 engine still registered as an unmodified 1173 wheezy sidevalve powered car and advertised as such by the seller.
Dutton Melos fitted with a 3.9litre V8 Landrover engine with fuel injection still registered as a 1.3 car offered by the seller with the current V5
All of these could not be regarded as correctly registered or insured.
I wonder why the drivers think this is a safe way to carry on. In the case of the Melos it still had drum brakes all round. Can you imagine the danger??
When you insure a kitcar, you are asked "has it got any modifications" bearing in mind this is a telephone conversation I usually laugh at this point & say "it's a kit car, tell me what's standard & I'll tell you if its been modified" the conversation about mods usually ends at this point & they just continue to insure the vehicle.
If it can be proved that you have made ANY modifications to the vehicle AFTER taking out the insurance & you haven't notified them then I think they could, technically, refuse to pay a claim (obvious example you change the mirrors & have provided them with a pic for valuation purposes on which the old mirrors are an obvious difference), however, if you've never provided pics (much more the norm nowadays) then its up to them to prove you've modified the vehicle.
With regard to the sort of vehicles you're describing above anyone insuring on the basis described must all have one thing in common - an IQ of something substantially below 100! If you insure a 3.0 litre vehicle as a 1.3 it's uninsured - end of.
If it can be proved that you have made ANY modifications to the vehicle AFTER taking out the insurance & you haven't notified them then I think they could, technically, refuse to pay a claim (obvious example you change the mirrors & have provided them with a pic for valuation purposes on which the old mirrors are an obvious difference), however, if you've never provided pics (much more the norm nowadays) then its up to them to prove you've modified the vehicle.
With regard to the sort of vehicles you're describing above anyone insuring on the basis described must all have one thing in common - an IQ of something substantially below 100! If you insure a 3.0 litre vehicle as a 1.3 it's uninsured - end of.
Back in 1996 I hit a car on the Paignton to Totnes road when I was driving my Autotune Gemini and managed to right off both cars (this remains my one road crash in 43 years driving).
The car had a 2 litre Pinto on Webers etc but I had declared only that it was a 2 litre.
On the claim form it asked if there were any modifications to which I wrote "by the very nature of a kit car the whole thing is modified" they paid out £4200 which at the time was ok and that was that, happily insurance companies know that people who build cars do not often have accidents hence premiums are not too bad.
The car had a 2 litre Pinto on Webers etc but I had declared only that it was a 2 litre.
On the claim form it asked if there were any modifications to which I wrote "by the very nature of a kit car the whole thing is modified" they paid out £4200 which at the time was ok and that was that, happily insurance companies know that people who build cars do not often have accidents hence premiums are not too bad.
dmulally said:
Out of curiosity...
Why are the English so obsessed with insurance? In oz we have 3rd party compulsary which is around the 300GBP mark per annum and covers you for smashing into someone or something. It is based on no claim, age of car, age of driver, area etc. But its roughly the same where ever you go.
I read this forum a bit and get practicle classics magazine and insurance is a major factor in purchasing the car. Seems odd to me.
I have a mondeo and an elise, I pay about 300GBP for each. I'm probably in the lowest risk group possible. I'm 45, I have 9+ years no claims, live in a decent area.Why are the English so obsessed with insurance? In oz we have 3rd party compulsary which is around the 300GBP mark per annum and covers you for smashing into someone or something. It is based on no claim, age of car, age of driver, area etc. But its roughly the same where ever you go.
I read this forum a bit and get practicle classics magazine and insurance is a major factor in purchasing the car. Seems odd to me.
A young driver will be paying nearer the 1,000GBP mark for anything with an engine. Get something with even a small amount of power and its going to be closer to £1500GBP. A car with a decent amount of power is going to be £2,000+.
Its quite possible to get quotes for £10,000+ without trying too hard!
Steffan said:
I suppose my interest come4s from seeing so many clearly modified cars that are actually insured as base models to get a cheap premium.
For example
Minis which have 1340cc A+++ engines in a car registered `still as a 998cc car and advertised as such by the seller.
Ford Popular with a 3.5 V8 engine still registered as an unmodified 1173 wheezy sidevalve powered car and advertised as such by the seller.
Dutton Melos fitted with a 3.9litre V8 Landrover engine with fuel injection still registered as a 1.3 car offered by the seller with the current V5
All of these could not be regarded as correctly registered or insured.
I wonder why the drivers think this is a safe way to carry on. In the case of the Melos it still had drum brakes all round. Can you imagine the danger??
All those examples would be uninsured. Insurance is a contract of good faith, as such you are required to inform the insurer of any changes. The stated examples would therefore all be in breach of contract.For example
Minis which have 1340cc A+++ engines in a car registered `still as a 998cc car and advertised as such by the seller.
Ford Popular with a 3.5 V8 engine still registered as an unmodified 1173 wheezy sidevalve powered car and advertised as such by the seller.
Dutton Melos fitted with a 3.9litre V8 Landrover engine with fuel injection still registered as a 1.3 car offered by the seller with the current V5
All of these could not be regarded as correctly registered or insured.
I wonder why the drivers think this is a safe way to carry on. In the case of the Melos it still had drum brakes all round. Can you imagine the danger??
For your other point of modifications to kit cars, due to a lack of a standard spec you can not as such modify it. However this does not mean that any changes you make are not notifyable. Clearly changing the engine capacity would be notifyable but putting changing wheels would not in the case of a kit car.
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