1800S front and rear uprights

[THREEFISHORANGE]

Next step after the chassis would be Where to get uprated/replacement front and rear uprights?
Also would be looking for uprated driveshafts.
Would there be any restrictions with regards to FIA ?
Thanks

Edited by THREEFISHORANGE on Tuesday 14th August 15:10

[Fiscracer]

The official position is that if you want to be FIA compliant basically you cannot upgrade. That's rather the point, the cars are run as they would have been in period. Strictly speaking you should not have any changes to things like strengthened chassis pick up points. Material can change but design no. So you may be able to get away with GT6 stub axles but TR6 driveshafts or steel/beefed up rear uprights or big quill shafts are a no no. If in doubt speak to Jim Lowry.

The reality is that people cheat as much as they think they can get away with. Some events the scrutineering is stricter than others eg L'Age D'Or, ADAC and Oldtimer much tougher than Spa 6 Hrs. I have known them take the brake pads out of MGBs and found every car to be running V8 pads - so are you going to run Girling 14s (correct but no b good) or 16s?. A 4 synchro gearbox is not legal but the 3 sync SC gearsets are made of chocolate so.......It can be expensive if you make the wrong choices.

My recommendation is build a car that fully complies, get your papers and then 'improve' it over time.

If I can help just pm me

R

[Thurner Fan]

With regard to FIA Appendix K compliance, I've spoken to at least one Grantura racer who feels that Girling 14s actually provide plenty of stopping power for such a light car. The 16s have a larger pad area but are not required. They've also not had a problem with the 3 synchro gearbox after changing from a 4 synchro a few seasons ago. The insistence on using a 3 synchro actually helps the cause as (a) it is some 10kg lighter annd (b) apart from maybe Mallory Park there isn't a circuit where 1st gear is used in race conditions.

[Fiscracer]

Thurner Fan said:

With regard to FIA Appendix K compliance, I've spoken to at least one Grantura racer who feels that Girling 14s actually provide plenty of stopping power for such a light car. The 16s have a larger pad area but are not required. They've also not had a problem with the 3 synchro gearbox after changing from a 4 synchro a few seasons ago. The insistence on using a 3 synchro actually helps the cause as (a) it is some 10kg lighter annd (b) apart from maybe Mallory Park there isn't a circuit where 1st gear is used in race conditions.

Re brakes I suggest you talk to a few more Grantura racers then - the quick ones. 14s are OK if you want to pootle around at the back.......

Re gearbox its not about first gear, its about reliability, the mainshaft is about half the diameter of the 4 sync and the gears lighter so they break. After all it essentially a box for a 1940s road car. The new B&G 3 sync SC gearsets 'still need development'.

As I said its all about whether you want to stick to the letter of the law and watch others just drive away from you or do you bend the rules just like everyone else? The biggest benders (excuse the expression) are those who haven't got the talent and have to do so to keep up or have a commercial interest so have to win.

[Thurner Fan]

Fiscracer said:

Re brakes I suggest you talk to a few more Grantura racers then - the quick ones. 14s are OK if you want to pootle around at the back.......

Re gearbox its not about first gear, its about reliability, the mainshaft is about half the diameter of the 4 sync and the gears lighter so they break. After all it essentially a box for a 1940s road car. The new B&G 3 sync SC gearsets 'still need development'.

As I said its all about whether you want to stick to the letter of the law and watch others just drive away from you or do you bend the rules just like everyone else? The biggest benders (excuse the expression) are those who haven't got the talent and have to do so to keep up or have a commercial interest so have to win.

Actually, I have talked to most of the Grantura racers and haven't really seen any of them pootling around at the back after they've had a season or two to learn how to drive the TVR. I don't recall seeing you out in your Grantura so perhaps you could define 'quick' and then we'll know if we are comparing apples with apples. What dry lap times do you post in your Grantura for, say, Donington (National), Silverstone GP (with 'historic' version of Vale) and Spa? I'd be expecting a fast (and FIA legal) Grantura with an 1840/1850 engine to be posting sub 1 min 28s, 2 min 40s and 3 min 10s respectively.

As for the gearboxes, I do agree that the 4 synchro is a stronger bit of kit, believe me, it is perfectly possible to race reliably and very quickly with a 3 synchro, and not even one with straight cut gears. However, as most racers are aware there is a wide spectrum of mechanical sympathy when it comes to how the 'box is used and they need to be very well prepared and maintained (e.g. Hardy Engineering and regular inspection/preventative maintenance). By the way, the mention of first gear was only intended to illustate to those not having a detailed knowledge of UK tracks that a smooth gearchange into 1st was irrelevant and so not being able to use the 4 synchro was no loss in that respect.

I think the Mk3 is a fantastic racing tool and, as you can see from our discussion, I am confident that an FIA compliant car can be made to go as fast as any of them out racing today. The most crucial component, as ever, sits behind the wheel! Out of interest, are you planning to be out in yours soon? I would imagine there will be one or two cars in the Spa 6 Hours again this year. Incidentally, I do agree with your point about that particular event allowing a lot of rule bending.

Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 15th August 16:53

Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 15th August 17:24

Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 15th August 17:26

[Fiscracer]

Thurner Fan said:

Fiscracer said:

Re brakes I suggest you talk to a few more Grantura racers then - the quick ones. 14s are OK if you want to pootle around at the back.......

Re gearbox its not about first gear, its about reliability, the mainshaft is about half the diameter of the 4 sync and the gears lighter so they break. After all it essentially a box for a 1940s road car. The new B&G 3 sync SC gearsets 'still need development'.

As I said its all about whether you want to stick to the letter of the law and watch others just drive away from you or do you bend the rules just like everyone else? The biggest benders (excuse the expression) are those who haven't got the talent and have to do so to keep up or have a commercial interest so have to win.

Actually, I have talked to most of the Grantura racers and haven't really seen any of them pootling around at the back after they've had a season or two to learn how to drive the TVR. I don't recall seeing you out in your Grantura so perhaps you could define 'quick' and then we'll know if we are comparing apples with apples. What dry lap times do you post in your Grantura for, say, Donington (National), Silverstone GP (with 'historic' version of Vale) and Spa? I'd be expecting a fast (and FIA legal) Grantura with an 1840/1850 engine to be posting sub 1 min 28s, 2 min 40s and 3 min 10s respectively.

As for the gearboxes, I do agree that the 4 synchro is a stronger bit of kit, believe me, it is perfectly possible to race reliably and very quickly with a 3 synchro, and not even one with straight cut gears. However, as most racers are aware there is a wide spectrum of mechanical sympathy when it comes to how the 'box is used and they need to be very well prepared and maintained (e.g. Hardy Engineering and regular inspection/preventative maintenance). By the way, the mention of first gear was only intended to illustate to those not having a detailed knowledge of UK tracks that a smooth gearchange into 1st was irrelevant and so not being able to use the 4 synchro was no loss in that respect.

I think the Mk3 is a fantastic racing tool and, as you can see from our discussion, I am confident that an FIA compliant car can be made to go as fast as any of them out racing today. The most crucial component, as ever, sits behind the wheel! Out of interest, are you planning to be out in yours soon? I would imagine there will be one or two cars in the Spa 6 Hours again this year. Incidentally, I do agree with your point about that particular event allowing a lot of rule bending.

Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 15th August 16:53

Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 15th August 17:24

Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 15th August 17:26

I wont pass comment as you clearly know more than the people who race them.

Apart from one shakedown session at Thruxton last year I have not raced in the UK since 2001 - and I won that race pole to pole. Having won several UK Championships the draw of a wet and windy Snetterton or Combe isn't really a match for the Nordschleife, Spa, Dijon, Monza, Le Mans, Charade, Zandvoort, Magny Cours etc etc I have raced at Spa at least once every year since and yes my Grantura broke 3m 10s last year.

There is one Grantura entered for Spa 6 Hours this year, Joe Ward's. I will be in a Marcos 1800GT, going rather quicker than the Grantura and hoping it hangs together.

Come and say hello.

[Thurner Fan]

THREEFISHORANGE said:

Next step after the chassis would be Where to get uprated/replacement front and rear uprights?
Also would be looking for uprated driveshafts.
Would there be any restrictions with regards to FIA ?
Thanks

Edited by THREEFISHORANGE on Tuesday 14th August 15:10

I agree with Fiscracer's comment on FIA rules permitting the use of different materials but insisting on the same design.

You might want to contact Nigel Reuben to see what parts he is able to supply http://www.nigelreubenracing.com

Good luck.

[Thurner Fan]

Fiscracer said:

I wont pass comment as you clearly know more than the people who race them.

My point was merely to suggest that it is a mistake to tar all the fast Grantura racers with the same brush. Worth asking the owners next time you see them in the paddock about those brakes and gearboxes. You might be surprised! You probably already know that it is also worth checking out the suspension as well - positioning of anti-roll bar, pick-up points for top of front shocks and materials used in the shock absorbers have also been played about with on certain cars. Also how far back the engine is positioned(!).

Those lap times were all assuming Dunlop Ls by the way. A sub 3.10 for Spa is pretty good on those tyres.

Hope the Marcos goes well at Spa. Sadly I won't be there to spectate at the 6 Hrs this year.

Cheers

TF

Edited by Thurner Fan on Friday 17th August 17:20

[Fiscracer]

Thurner Fan said:

You probably already know that it is also worth checking out the suspension as well - positioning of anti-roll bar, pick-up points for top of front shocks and materials used in the shock absorbers have also been played about with on certain cars.

You should be an FIA scrutineer, you clearly know your stuff. BTW changing rear pick up points has more positive impact but is harder to spot

Bit of a nightmare for Chris. My best advice is build it as light as possible. Nobody is anywhere near the 600kg homolation limit - I know of only one car under 700kg and its not mine.

[Thurner Fan]

I too only know of one race car below 700kg. It is in Sweden and the owner has posted lots of info here http://user.tninet.se/~kaw434x/e_tvr.htm. Usefully, he includes scans of the homologation papers for the MkIII 1800, the model variant that everyone builds their Grantura race cars to.

I think being an FIA scrutineer must be up there in the popularity stakes alongside traffic warden! I am not a scrutineer but I have chatted extensively to many of the Grantura racers in the paddock over the past few years. My advice to the original poster would be to have a word with both Nigel Reuben and Jim Lowry to see (a) what can be done within the limits of FIA legality (JL) and (b) what it is likely to cost (NR). My hunch is that the race parts will seem overly expensive if the car is merely for fast road / sprint use but there may be more modest versions of certain components that would give a suitable level of confidence over continuing to use (reconditioned) orginal drivetrain/suspension bits.

TF

Edited by Thurner Fan on Friday 17th August 17:19

[Kickstart]

Our 1800S clocked in at 694 kg on the Ring weighing station, after allowing for fuel...quite pleased with that especially as it is with the original chassis and body
I was speaking to Nigel Reuben and he thought with a money no object FIA build you could get down to circa 625kg - I suspect that if I manned up and bought a new lightweight chassis and body I could get down to 650kg - just the slight issue of the expense

[Fiscracer]

Kickstart said:

Our 1800S clocked in at 694 kg on the Ring weighing station, after allowing for fuel...quite pleased with that especially as it is with the original chassis and body
I was speaking to Nigel Reuben and he thought with a money no object FIA build you could get down to circa 625kg - I suspect that if I manned up and bought a new lightweight chassis and body I could get down to 650kg - just the slight issue of the expense

Nigel

NR built the MkIII now owned by Sean McInerney. It was no expense spared when built for Malcolm Johnson and I'm told it weighs about the same as yours - which is certainly a lot less than mine, Rod's and Mark's

R