£16.5k HSCC spec Taimar!
Discussion
Can you believe this, thinks its worth it as I am building a similar spec car myself.
http://www.p9raceshop.com/cgi-bin/ecom.cgi?Command...
http://www.p9raceshop.com/cgi-bin/ecom.cgi?Command...
Worth every penny i think i will have spent that and more once mine is done even if i take what the car cost in the first place think what we worked out what the cars would be today if new based on what they cost in 79 and add inflation.
with an MOTd runner costing 5K to 7k on original unrestored chassis ????? then you can see the value very tempted myself
Andrew
with an MOTd runner costing 5K to 7k on original unrestored chassis ????? then you can see the value very tempted myself
Andrew
Pete
It doesn't look cheap to me in the current market. I'm afraid that prices for 70s and 80s club racers are just not in the same league as 'marque' cars or pre 66 FIA cars.
It always costs a lot more to build than to buy. On the other hand not everyone can find all the wonga in one go, or have other priorities such as kitchens etc so have no choice but to build a car over time eg you, Jelli, Neil.
How much will it cost you over the purchase price to convert it to how you want it?
Although FIA cars are a lot more expensive than club racers my MkIII Grannie and my Marcos have cost cost me almost £40k between them to prepare properly and both were supposedly ready to go. Neither option is cheap
Also its not just about money/cost/value. Anyone can buy one, not many can build one themselves at home. Both Neil and Jelli can be rightly proud of the cars they have created and you'll be the same when yours is finished.
It doesn't look cheap to me in the current market. I'm afraid that prices for 70s and 80s club racers are just not in the same league as 'marque' cars or pre 66 FIA cars.
It always costs a lot more to build than to buy. On the other hand not everyone can find all the wonga in one go, or have other priorities such as kitchens etc so have no choice but to build a car over time eg you, Jelli, Neil.
How much will it cost you over the purchase price to convert it to how you want it?
Although FIA cars are a lot more expensive than club racers my MkIII Grannie and my Marcos have cost cost me almost £40k between them to prepare properly and both were supposedly ready to go. Neither option is cheap
Also its not just about money/cost/value. Anyone can buy one, not many can build one themselves at home. Both Neil and Jelli can be rightly proud of the cars they have created and you'll be the same when yours is finished.
I don't necessarily agree..
It is often cheaper to buy something else compared to the cost of something else that was built!!
But I know for a fact that My car cannot be bought for what it cost to build!!
Generally my experience is that very well built cars cannot be bought for what they cost to build.
An average car on the other hand will often be bought for approximately what it cost to build.
Then their is the additional cost of making an average car a good car!!
The validity of the topic also depends on who is doing the building??
Average cars tend to be advertised for a reason...good cars seldom are!!
Anyone who has been in racing circles for any length of time should also know that the ONLY time to buy a race car is at the end of the season as it comes into the pits from its final winning race....That way you are sure you are also buying the winning bits!!
N.
It is often cheaper to buy something else compared to the cost of something else that was built!!
But I know for a fact that My car cannot be bought for what it cost to build!!
Generally my experience is that very well built cars cannot be bought for what they cost to build.
An average car on the other hand will often be bought for approximately what it cost to build.
Then their is the additional cost of making an average car a good car!!
The validity of the topic also depends on who is doing the building??
Average cars tend to be advertised for a reason...good cars seldom are!!
Anyone who has been in racing circles for any length of time should also know that the ONLY time to buy a race car is at the end of the season as it comes into the pits from its final winning race....That way you are sure you are also buying the winning bits!!
N.
Edited by heightswitch on Thursday 17th January 17:12
Edited by heightswitch on Thursday 17th January 17:14
It seems unclear from the photos if it includes an engine - I presume from the description that it does.
I saw Dean Forward's work at last years race retro and it was of v high quality and the car looks superb if it includes a decent V6 engine then it looks good value to me as the Ric Wood essex engine I have got in the Marcos cost nearly a similar amount
I saw Dean Forward's work at last years race retro and it was of v high quality and the car looks superb if it includes a decent V6 engine then it looks good value to me as the Ric Wood essex engine I have got in the Marcos cost nearly a similar amount
Kickstart said:
It seems unclear from the photos if it includes an engine - I presume from the description that it does.
I saw Dean Forward's work at last years race retro and it was of v high quality and the car looks superb if it includes a decent V6 engine then it looks good value to me as the Ric Wood essex engine I have got in the Marcos cost nearly a similar amount
As a something being sold as an HSCC 70s roadsports car, an expensive RW engine at the silly money he can charge won't be legal I guess?I saw Dean Forward's work at last years race retro and it was of v high quality and the car looks superb if it includes a decent V6 engine then it looks good value to me as the Ric Wood essex engine I have got in the Marcos cost nearly a similar amount
Very nice looking Taimar BTW
Edited by TVR_owner on Friday 18th January 08:15
My experience of racing Essex V6 over the last 5 years points to them being rather fragile unless they are v carefully put together. I am told they can suffer with low oil pressure at high revs which combined with the long straight at the ring has led to 2 comprehensive engine blow ups. After these problems I got an engine from Ric and without sounding like an advert it has been faultless and produces decent power 282bhp.
They also sound great on open pipes...
They also sound great on open pipes...
We normally do Spa with the CSCC - but this is the same weekend as the Eifelrennen this year and much as I love Spa, 3 plus hours round the full Nurburgring is in a different league. At least at the Ring we can still run on open pipes as the dB limit is circa 120dB which allows for DFV's to run unsilenced...
Interestingly I suspect the TVR Taimar would be eligible for the Eifelrennen maybe as a youngtimer or else in a invitation class as the Germans seem to be very fond of TVRs.
There was a comment above about the costs of building a good racing car and I agree entirely - the difference in cost terms between a mid field car and one that with the right driver (yours truly excluded) can win is enormous
Good luck to all in 2013
Interestingly I suspect the TVR Taimar would be eligible for the Eifelrennen maybe as a youngtimer or else in a invitation class as the Germans seem to be very fond of TVRs.
There was a comment above about the costs of building a good racing car and I agree entirely - the difference in cost terms between a mid field car and one that with the right driver (yours truly excluded) can win is enormous
Good luck to all in 2013
I'd through that car straight out of any race it rocked up at.
It has a bloody Griff / Tuscan bonnet FFS. Laughably not legal in most series - if the HSCC let it run then they know diddly about the car specs. And from talking to one of the blokes that runs the HSCC at SPA last year. There was so much he really did not know about TVR's and the car he was standing next to!
It is good price for a well put together one though.
On Fisc's comments on my car. I know how much a built from scatch top spec fia Griff is (i.e. EVERY Single component is new), with a TOP new fia spec HiPo and the number I have been bandied about for the above you are talking £150,000. Yep you read that right. Mine at least has a fully traceable history.
I did not get into this to have an Fia car.
I was not even aware of Fia historic racing for at least the first 10 years I raced. They just don't do it for me.
I love old cars but like to Mod them how I see fit (hence the 2 TR's I have raced for well over 20 years), Oh AND I NEVER SELL THEM - why would you!
Mine is built to full Fia regs (pre-2009), bar a few minor changes:-
1. To stop the front wheels falling off. Different hubs specially engineered and rose-jointed wishbones.
You don't need that at 150mph ever lap at SPA (the stuff the top guys run is lifed and very expensive but will break still - have seen it at SPA 2010 qualy). Mine will be bombproof but easily changed back to fia spec (only wishbones and trick hubs). From what I here there is so much straight out cheating in the Fia race events it is just laughable. You have to have huge resources to compete at this level, getting new blocks and head casting with the old external numbers and shapes (is monster pricey, but if you have the cash it is chicken feed). Iside they are way stronger and more trick i.e. more like the engine I have but disguised to look period (pre-66). A good top fia 289 race lump will make 430bhp vs. maybe 350-360bhp in period (you cannot make those gains by using the same basic bits, with the supposed same rules / restrictions as in period).
2. I have modern front brakes, again, Griff stuff is marginal, smaller that ideal (Cobra's can run bigger just cos the Fia paper were not filled in by someone that knew the implications of putting different number down!) solid rotors with very good Jag 3 pots (LWE Spec), great calipers but iffy disc's. Seen these shatter on the top fia cars at close to top SPA speeds (150mph) not something I'd wanta be in! Again mine could be easily swapped for these.
3. My engine is the sort of thing that could in theory have been built from the mid 70's on. Trick Small Block Ford with Much better Alloy heads (better bhp / ltr than a real period 289 could ever hope for). More like what you could get in the GT40's that some how are allowed to run in 6 hours (they can be bigger and run Weslake heads - so of course they will now win every year (SPA 6) now the bugs have been wrung out of them (all new builds).
4. Modern but still highish profile tyres.
My car could be put to full fia spec for maybe £10k (doing it ourselves) i.e. body / bonnet from Mr Ticer, (I want a 200 not a 400 as you have to run - mine was a 200 when new and will remain one (3rd one to come out of the factory btw and most were 200's)) + Suspension and Front brakes.
Then I'd need a full spec fia 289 - these are anything you want to spend from a std one (not gonna make 260bhp!), through to a £25k build. I have a proper HiPo 289 (no regrinds) and proper HiPo heads and Big caps - and could probably get a 400+bhp engine for maybe £15k.
So I could do Fia for maybe 25k. But I have ZERO desire to do that. I have saved maybe £50-70k on my build, through having the best father anyone could ever hope for. I could have built it to a MUCH lower spec, but that is not my style). Father has built the bulk of the car with me helping as much as I humanly can (have to work to pay for it all!). I KNOW it will be to the same level or in some areas I think even better than a top spec Fia car (Father is a Total Perfectionist). You would not believe how much some of the properly trick bits are (not required for Fia papers, just to make them the best they possibly can be from a Performance and Safety perspective).
Sorry to Rant On.
But there is so much Utter Bull talked in Historic racing circles (and how many actually race rather than just like to watch or take an interest, by doing this you find out what is really what). At the one level this 3000M should not be allowed to race as is, (but then the series organisers probably don't know as much as they really should), then at the other you could be up against 1/2+ Billionaires (yep you read that right) in the top Fia V8's like the GT40's (£0.5M to £2-3M) and they are all bending (or pushing the rules to the max - most MG engined fia racers for instance are 1950cc (should be about 1840 with a +60 oberbore) and everyone knows it, just turn a blind eye - same will apply for the LWE's and Top V8 cars.
I stopped going on 10/10th due to all the old tossers just endlessly mentioning Fi bloody a - give me Bloody Strength.
I just always wanted a Griff, from the first time I found out about them. My second ever car was a 3000M (at 22 btw) - I think I kind of imagined it was a Griff or Tuscan V8 when driving it even back then.
When I raced against the Ultimate Spec race Griff (Steve Watton's ex car) back in 06/07 and then one came up for sale in France, totally in bits, I had to have it!
I just wanted the Best Griff I could possibly Imagine.
Should have it by the Spring.
RANT OVER.
It has a bloody Griff / Tuscan bonnet FFS. Laughably not legal in most series - if the HSCC let it run then they know diddly about the car specs. And from talking to one of the blokes that runs the HSCC at SPA last year. There was so much he really did not know about TVR's and the car he was standing next to!
It is good price for a well put together one though.
On Fisc's comments on my car. I know how much a built from scatch top spec fia Griff is (i.e. EVERY Single component is new), with a TOP new fia spec HiPo and the number I have been bandied about for the above you are talking £150,000. Yep you read that right. Mine at least has a fully traceable history.
I did not get into this to have an Fia car.
I was not even aware of Fia historic racing for at least the first 10 years I raced. They just don't do it for me.
I love old cars but like to Mod them how I see fit (hence the 2 TR's I have raced for well over 20 years), Oh AND I NEVER SELL THEM - why would you!
Mine is built to full Fia regs (pre-2009), bar a few minor changes:-
1. To stop the front wheels falling off. Different hubs specially engineered and rose-jointed wishbones.
You don't need that at 150mph ever lap at SPA (the stuff the top guys run is lifed and very expensive but will break still - have seen it at SPA 2010 qualy). Mine will be bombproof but easily changed back to fia spec (only wishbones and trick hubs). From what I here there is so much straight out cheating in the Fia race events it is just laughable. You have to have huge resources to compete at this level, getting new blocks and head casting with the old external numbers and shapes (is monster pricey, but if you have the cash it is chicken feed). Iside they are way stronger and more trick i.e. more like the engine I have but disguised to look period (pre-66). A good top fia 289 race lump will make 430bhp vs. maybe 350-360bhp in period (you cannot make those gains by using the same basic bits, with the supposed same rules / restrictions as in period).
2. I have modern front brakes, again, Griff stuff is marginal, smaller that ideal (Cobra's can run bigger just cos the Fia paper were not filled in by someone that knew the implications of putting different number down!) solid rotors with very good Jag 3 pots (LWE Spec), great calipers but iffy disc's. Seen these shatter on the top fia cars at close to top SPA speeds (150mph) not something I'd wanta be in! Again mine could be easily swapped for these.
3. My engine is the sort of thing that could in theory have been built from the mid 70's on. Trick Small Block Ford with Much better Alloy heads (better bhp / ltr than a real period 289 could ever hope for). More like what you could get in the GT40's that some how are allowed to run in 6 hours (they can be bigger and run Weslake heads - so of course they will now win every year (SPA 6) now the bugs have been wrung out of them (all new builds).
4. Modern but still highish profile tyres.
My car could be put to full fia spec for maybe £10k (doing it ourselves) i.e. body / bonnet from Mr Ticer, (I want a 200 not a 400 as you have to run - mine was a 200 when new and will remain one (3rd one to come out of the factory btw and most were 200's)) + Suspension and Front brakes.
Then I'd need a full spec fia 289 - these are anything you want to spend from a std one (not gonna make 260bhp!), through to a £25k build. I have a proper HiPo 289 (no regrinds) and proper HiPo heads and Big caps - and could probably get a 400+bhp engine for maybe £15k.
So I could do Fia for maybe 25k. But I have ZERO desire to do that. I have saved maybe £50-70k on my build, through having the best father anyone could ever hope for. I could have built it to a MUCH lower spec, but that is not my style). Father has built the bulk of the car with me helping as much as I humanly can (have to work to pay for it all!). I KNOW it will be to the same level or in some areas I think even better than a top spec Fia car (Father is a Total Perfectionist). You would not believe how much some of the properly trick bits are (not required for Fia papers, just to make them the best they possibly can be from a Performance and Safety perspective).
Sorry to Rant On.
But there is so much Utter Bull talked in Historic racing circles (and how many actually race rather than just like to watch or take an interest, by doing this you find out what is really what). At the one level this 3000M should not be allowed to race as is, (but then the series organisers probably don't know as much as they really should), then at the other you could be up against 1/2+ Billionaires (yep you read that right) in the top Fia V8's like the GT40's (£0.5M to £2-3M) and they are all bending (or pushing the rules to the max - most MG engined fia racers for instance are 1950cc (should be about 1840 with a +60 oberbore) and everyone knows it, just turn a blind eye - same will apply for the LWE's and Top V8 cars.
I stopped going on 10/10th due to all the old tossers just endlessly mentioning Fi bloody a - give me Bloody Strength.
I just always wanted a Griff, from the first time I found out about them. My second ever car was a 3000M (at 22 btw) - I think I kind of imagined it was a Griff or Tuscan V8 when driving it even back then.
When I raced against the Ultimate Spec race Griff (Steve Watton's ex car) back in 06/07 and then one came up for sale in France, totally in bits, I had to have it!
I just wanted the Best Griff I could possibly Imagine.
Should have it by the Spring.
RANT OVER.
Just wanted off my chest, something flicked the switch.
Just happen to have a car that can be fia (an can be worth more in that state). Never been into that.
Just always wanted the Ultimate Griff. So based on Fia regs as a starting point (so it could be switched fairly easy - a chunk of work i.e. winter project), but it ain't happening on my watch - they can bury me in it.
Just happen to have a car that can be fia (an can be worth more in that state). Never been into that.
Just always wanted the Ultimate Griff. So based on Fia regs as a starting point (so it could be switched fairly easy - a chunk of work i.e. winter project), but it ain't happening on my watch - they can bury me in it.
Back on topic.
The car looks well built and good value for money. I say this knowing what it costs to build a TVR 3000M race car.
To touch on Kickstart's point, you can spend a lot of money developing a car, and the tighter the series regulations, the more it will cost to get a car that is competitive....but as a fresh car to start racing, it looks like a good package.
The car looks well built and good value for money. I say this knowing what it costs to build a TVR 3000M race car.
To touch on Kickstart's point, you can spend a lot of money developing a car, and the tighter the series regulations, the more it will cost to get a car that is competitive....but as a fresh car to start racing, it looks like a good package.
If it has not sold by then maybe the builders will bring it to Race Retro ?
As well as the HSCC it would also be eligible for the CSCC modern classics and presumably a number of other series. Certainly in the CSCC, regs are at a minimum and within certain limits you can do what you want and what one's budget allows for. My only point except for saying how much I like the look of this car is simply that the Essex engine when raced seriously needs careful building.
As well as the HSCC it would also be eligible for the CSCC modern classics and presumably a number of other series. Certainly in the CSCC, regs are at a minimum and within certain limits you can do what you want and what one's budget allows for. My only point except for saying how much I like the look of this car is simply that the Essex engine when raced seriously needs careful building.
I also note on the same site they are also advertising a 1966 HSCC eligible Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GT for exactly the same money, so maybe well prepared post FIA period classic racers are starting to find slot around this kind of level and maybe creeping up as many folk cant afford the extortionate amount of money pre 66 machinery is currently commanding, just a thought, or maybe wishful thinking. ;-)
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