remind me to buy a lotto ticket this week..........5000M!!!
Discussion
Glen, If you win lotto have the 5000M as your track car and this beautifully engineered Cosworth engined 'M' as your road car.
http://www.bornemann-fahrzeugtechnik.de/78.html?&a...
They would look really cool next to each other in your garage.
http://www.bornemann-fahrzeugtechnik.de/78.html?&a...
They would look really cool next to each other in your garage.
Fiscracer said:
What, at £22k for a bitsa? Not sure what sort of classic racing its eligible for either
I wouldn't be interested in racing it. Maybe a few track days,but the bits alone must be worth it. How much would it cost to have some one complete the build as a road car? Putting an LS engine into my Tuscan would cost the best part of £20k Fiscracer said:
What, at £22k for a bitsa? Not sure what sort of classic racing its eligible for either
Presumably, any and all of the events that Peter Wheeler's car is/was participating in. Other than that, only those with comatose scrutineers. Another question we could ask is, what events, series or classes it would be eligible to participate in.
Best,
B.
tuscanturner said:
I wouldn't be interested in racing it. Maybe a few track days,but the bits alone must be worth it. How much would it cost to have some one complete the build as a road car? Putting an LS engine into my Tuscan would cost the best part of £20k
Engine w/ carb & intake ........ ~$10,000 TKO 600 ................................ $2,300
Clutch ..................................... $300
Above prices are retail.
Some of the bits, lovely as they are, are for bragging rights, more than for function. Take the floors; their contribution to weight savings is at the lowest point in the car, and therefore relatively insignificant to handling. The magnitude of their affect on chassis stiffening is also dubious, as the chassis/cage is beautifully triangulated. Conversely, a steel scattershield should be a mandatory safety feature, in a front-mid engine racing car, yet this one has an Aluminium bellhousing.
Turning it into a road car would be a bit of a waste. I expect you'd hate climbing in and out by the end of a week. If the engine is built as a race motor, it will need to be revised to be streetable. Beyond that, you'd probably want to have a different set of springs/shocks for street than for track, and two sets of wheels and tires. The brakes are beautiful, but look used , and may need refurb. Getting pads you could live with on the street could be tricky. Race pads live in different conditions. Then, you'd have to add interior ventilation, windows that open/close, and some sound deadening, unless you think you would be comfortable driving with a helmet every time, to shut out the noise. Then, there'd be the column/dash retrofit for turn signals, several additional gauges (fuel level comes to mind). If, like our DOT, your DVLA requires glass windscreens, that's another issue, as the Wheeler/Samuelson car is reputed to have an extra wide windscreen. Another thing to consider, is how you'd title it. After all, it's not an M. I honestly think that it's easier to turn a street car into a dual purpose one, than it is to accomplish the same goal with a race car. A race car is usually designed as a compromise free solution to a problem, so you have a long way to go. A sports car starts as a set of compromises, so there's far less work in skewing those to a point of your liking.
Alternately, you could throw a Tuscan race car body on it, and it wouldn't be a bitsa.
Just my 2p.
Best,
B.
TVR_owner said:
Except the drive train?
Exactly. If, as the advert states, the engine is built to Boss 302 specifications, that mightn't be a bad thing.
Best,
B.
P.S. As a tiny aside rant, it constantly puzzles me to see people create purpose built race cars, with Small Block Ford motors, that utilize cast iron blocks. There are a few aluminium 4 bolt main blocks available that are substantially stronger than 2 bolt versions, and at least the equal of the iron 4 bolt variant, AND are lighter. If the class you're running in doesn't mandate iron, what's the point?
Slow M said:
Exactly.
If, as the advert states, the engine is built to Boss 302 specifications, that mightn't be a bad thing.
Best,
B.
P.S. As a tiny aside rant, it constantly puzzles me to see people create purpose built race cars, with Small Block Ford motors, that utilize cast iron blocks. There are a few aluminium 4 bolt main blocks available that are substantially stronger than 2 bolt versions, and at least the equal of the iron 4 bolt variant, AND are lighter. If the class you're running in doesn't mandate iron, what's the point?
Since when can a windsor engine be a boss engine??If, as the advert states, the engine is built to Boss 302 specifications, that mightn't be a bad thing.
Best,
B.
P.S. As a tiny aside rant, it constantly puzzles me to see people create purpose built race cars, with Small Block Ford motors, that utilize cast iron blocks. There are a few aluminium 4 bolt main blocks available that are substantially stronger than 2 bolt versions, and at least the equal of the iron 4 bolt variant, AND are lighter. If the class you're running in doesn't mandate iron, what's the point?
It may have 4 bolt mains and after market tunnel port heads but that doesn't make it a boss engine..
as for aluminium blocks...Again you mentioned bragging rights...The Iron ford is very light for what it is. I would also state probably much more stable than a virgin linered ally block, not to mention approx 1/30th the price
The car whilst no doubt being someones wet dream will not be everyones wet dream.
It is also currently not a car. it is an assembly of parts needing probably another 20 -30 k thrown at it to make it a car which ultimately won't be eligible to race in much??
They would be better off selling the bits separately.
N.
Edited by heightswitch on Sunday 17th March 12:09
heightswitch said:
Slow M said:
Exactly.
If, as the advert states, the engine is built to Boss 302 specifications, that mightn't be a bad thing.
Best,
B.
P.S. As a tiny aside rant, it constantly puzzles me to see people create purpose built race cars, with Small Block Ford motors, that utilize cast iron blocks. There are a few aluminium 4 bolt main blocks available that are substantially stronger than 2 bolt versions, and at least the equal of the iron 4 bolt variant, AND are lighter. If the class you're running in doesn't mandate iron, what's the point?
Since when can a windsor engine be a boss engine??If, as the advert states, the engine is built to Boss 302 specifications, that mightn't be a bad thing.
Best,
B.
P.S. As a tiny aside rant, it constantly puzzles me to see people create purpose built race cars, with Small Block Ford motors, that utilize cast iron blocks. There are a few aluminium 4 bolt main blocks available that are substantially stronger than 2 bolt versions, and at least the equal of the iron 4 bolt variant, AND are lighter. If the class you're running in doesn't mandate iron, what's the point?
It may have 4 bolt mains and after market tunnel port heads but that doesn't make it a boss engine..
as for aluminium blocks...Again you mentioned bragging rights...The Iron ford is very light for what it is. I would also state probably much more stable than a virgin linered ally block, not to mention approx 1/30th the price
The car whilst no doubt being someones wet dream will not be everyones wet dream.
It is also currently not a car. it is an assembly of parts needing probably another 20 -30 k thrown at it to make it a car which ultimately won't be eligible to race in much??
They would be better off selling the bits separately.
N.
Edited by heightswitch on Sunday 17th March 12:09
Be serious; how often do you hear racers (sincerely) complain about having too much power?
I wrote "built to Boss 302 specifications," because that's what the ad states. I read it as:
- using all forged internals
- 4-bolt main block
- w/ structural reinforcements
- similar cam profile
- similar flow numbers from the head and intake
As you're not likely to see that number from any naturally aspirated 8.2" deck motor, these blocks enable you to pursue every bit of power available under the rules.
For the sake of its sterling reputation, the one I've long lusted after is a Fontana block.
If you read up on them, you'll see how a 302 can be a Windsor and a Boss, or at least a hybrid between the two.
To underscore my earlier point, type/approx. weights
289/302 block ............................... 95lb
aluminium racing block .................... 95lb-115lb
R302 cast iron/steel racing blocks ... 165lb
I am sure you have a better idea about cost to finish a project like this, than do I. None the less, the cost to finish this one, that both you and TVR_owner have mentioned, indicates that spending $2,000 extra on a good, used Fontana block would only represents around 2.5% of the total investment. Not too bad, in my book, for ensuring that you can be a front runner. Also, not bad insurance, for knowing that you're not prodding a grenade.
Best,
B.
P.S. are you nearly done with buttoning everything up?
Slow M said:
eil,
Be serious; how often do you hear racers (sincerely) complain about having too much power?
I wrote "built to Boss 302 specifications," because that's what the ad states. I read it as:
As you're not likely to see that number from any naturally aspirated 8.2" deck motor, these blocks enable you to pursue every bit of power available under the rules.
For the sake of its sterling reputation, the one I've long lusted after is a Fontana block.
If you read up on them, you'll see how a 302 can be a Windsor and a Boss, or at least a hybrid between the two.
To underscore my earlier point, type/approx. weights
289/302 block ............................... 95lb
aluminium racing block .................... 95lb-115lb
R302 cast iron/steel racing blocks ... 165lb
I am sure you have a better idea about cost to finish a project like this, than do I. None the less, the cost to finish this one, that both you and TVR_owner have mentioned, indicates that spending $2,000 extra on a good, used Fontana block would only represents around 2.5% of the total investment. Not too bad, in my book, for ensuring that you can be a front runner. Also, not bad insurance, for knowing that you're not prodding a grenade.
Best,
B.
P.S. are you nearly done with buttoning everything up?
new oil pump on order, didn't like what I found on strip down of my new old one that had done 7 laps!!...Be serious; how often do you hear racers (sincerely) complain about having too much power?
I wrote "built to Boss 302 specifications," because that's what the ad states. I read it as:
- using all forged internals
- 4-bolt main block
- w/ structural reinforcements
- similar cam profile
- similar flow numbers from the head and intake
As you're not likely to see that number from any naturally aspirated 8.2" deck motor, these blocks enable you to pursue every bit of power available under the rules.
For the sake of its sterling reputation, the one I've long lusted after is a Fontana block.
If you read up on them, you'll see how a 302 can be a Windsor and a Boss, or at least a hybrid between the two.
To underscore my earlier point, type/approx. weights
289/302 block ............................... 95lb
aluminium racing block .................... 95lb-115lb
R302 cast iron/steel racing blocks ... 165lb
I am sure you have a better idea about cost to finish a project like this, than do I. None the less, the cost to finish this one, that both you and TVR_owner have mentioned, indicates that spending $2,000 extra on a good, used Fontana block would only represents around 2.5% of the total investment. Not too bad, in my book, for ensuring that you can be a front runner. Also, not bad insurance, for knowing that you're not prodding a grenade.
Best,
B.
P.S. are you nearly done with buttoning everything up?
as for getting real, Come on bernard... The spec you list runs into many many thousands and more importantly won't be eligible for anything.
a std bore windsor block ripe for re-build can be had for £300. last time I looked an ally bare new block was £4500..that would build me 2 full engines...
I do keep things pretty real bernard!! Real working mans world!
using the words BOSS on the ad merely serves to misslead potential owners with more money than knowledge. A boss engine is a rare and very desirable thing. an old windsor with 4 bolt mains, scat crank etc is readily available. we all know that the Boss was esentially a cleveland head on a windsor based small block but in real terms it ainst that simple.. Screw in plugs, different castings, different oil galleries etc etc..
N.
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