5W--50 Castrol Synthetic: just great marketing?

[Renaldo]

Guys, the Canadian version of Halfords (or Pep Boys in the U.S.) is called Canadian Tire -- I kid you not. (For the longest time, their marketing line was "More than just tires". Cute.)

Today, they had a great deal on this synthetic oil, which is billed as "formulated for classics", presumably because it has ZDDP in it. Or maybe because Castrol would prefer that you bump up their profit margins on a more expensive oil.

And I bought a 5 litre jug. I would never buy this stuff normally -- it's regular price is almost double "regular" oil.

So, what are your preferences regarding oil? Synthetic versus non? Is just a plain old 20/50, of good quality, more than adequate?

Ron

[prideaux]

Renaldo said:

Guys, the Canadian version of Halfords (or Pep Boys in the U.S.) is called Canadian Tire -- I kid you not. (For the longest time, their marketing line was "More than just tires". Cute.)

Today, they had a great deal on this synthetic oil, which is billed as "formulated for classics", presumably because it has ZDDP in it. Or maybe because Castrol would prefer that you bump up their profit margins on a more expensive oil.

And I bought a 5 litre jug. I would never buy this stuff normally -- it's regular price is almost double "regular" oil.

So, what are your preferences regarding oil? Synthetic versus non? Is just a plain old 20/50, of good quality, more than adequate?

Ron

I use Millers 20/50 Classic Performance and get it in 25lt container which makes it just under £4 a LTR which is not to bad IMOP how often you change the oil is probably more important than the oil brand just a decent good 20/50 I am sure is good enough unless you doing track days and hard driving.
A

[Mr Tiger]

I've often wondered if full or part synthetic is suitable for older engines.

There is a thread on oil advice and recommendations in the General TVR Stuff & Gossip section.

My 2500 had an oil change (Castrol GTX) just before I bought it last year. I think it's 15/40 these days. I've done very little mileage since so haven't got round to changing it. The oil pressure is a little lower than what I would like but still within the range specified. It also has an oil cooler.

My understanding (or lack of) is that thicker oils need a longer warm up period before they properly protect the engine. Cold starting with thick oil similarly doesn't sound ideal.

Someone recently posted info about pre oilers but I can't find the thread. Building up oil pressure before starting the engine sounds like a good idea. It's something I must look into.

If you get any clarity on thinner oils for older engines please let us know.

Regards,

Chris

[Renaldo]

Chris, the big deal over here seems to be that many of the newly formulated oils aren't well-suited to classic engines, because they don't have enough zinc additive in them (ZDDP). I gather the zinc has some protective qualities that our engines need.

So, normally, I've used Castrol GTX 20w/50 and put in a small container of this zinc additive (ZDDP) at each oil change. How much this really is necessary, I don't know.

But as I mentioned, Castrol (in Canada, anyway) is now pushing this fully synthetic, which it's marketing as formulated for classic engines (it's a 5w/50).

Normally, it would be the equivalent of ~ 27 pounds for 5 litres. Ouch! (with the sale price and a free oil filter, it was a pretty good deal)

I sure would hesitate to pay the regular price, unless someone could convince me of a great benefit.

Ron

[prideaux]

Renaldo said:

Chris, the big deal over here seems to be that many of the newly formulated oils aren't well-suited to classic engines, because they don't have enough zinc additive in them (ZDDP). I gather the zinc has some protective qualities that our engines need.

So, normally, I've used Castrol GTX 20w/50 and put in a small container of this zinc additive (ZDDP) at each oil change. How much this really is necessary, I don't know.

But as I mentioned, Castrol (in Canada, anyway) is now pushing this fully synthetic, which it's marketing as formulated for classic engines (it's a 5w/50).

Normally, it would be the equivalent of ~ 27 pounds for 5 litres. Ouch! (with the sale price and a free oil filter, it was a pretty good deal)

I sure would hesitate to pay the regular price, unless someone could convince me of a great benefit.

Ron

Renaldo
Really the oil is one of the most important things in an engine even if the right oil was £100 to change it would still be worth it as the old advert says Liquid engineering for your car.
A

[RichB]

prideaux said:

I use Millers 20/50 Classic Performance and get it in 25lt container which makes it just under £4 a LTR which is not to bad IMOP how often you change the oil is probably more important than the oil brand just a decent good 20/50 I am sure is good enough unless you doing track days and hard driving. A

Agree, I use Castrol Classic 20w/50 which I also buy in 20ltr drum for around £95 so under 5 quid a litre. Change the oil every 2,500 miles...

[Renaldo]

Sometimes you hear that full-synthetic is simply better oil, overall, than the regular stuff.

But I've also read that full-synthetic may not be necessary or even well-suited to classic engines.

Maybe no need to make it complicated -- I guess using a good quality oil like Castrol and changing it often is the key.

And I do, on both counts.

Ron

[bluezeeland]

Renaldo said:

Sometimes you hear that full-synthetic is simply better oil, overall, than the regular stuff.

But I've also read that full-synthetic may not be necessary or even well-suited to classic engines.

Maybe no need to make it complicated -- I guess using a good quality oil like Castrol and changing it often is the key.

And I do, on both counts.

Ron

A synthetic oil might be the better oil, it is however not better suited to an older engine. The essex, or in your case, straight 6 are 'older' engines on all accounts, therefore the tolerances in design of the components are larger then in recent engines (simply by the capabilities of the machinery at the time they have been manufactured ) As a result you would need a more viscous (read mineral) oil. The designation of the oil required (cold start) depends on your geagraphical location (a fridge apparently in your case )

Zinc additives are, in a run in engine, not required (as far as i know) A run-in engine oil does contain zinc additives for this reason.

Using one of the well known brands can only be a plus, changing the oil (and filter) on a regular base (yearly, in my case) is just sensible ! (whatever the cost )

Frank

Edited by bluezeeland on Saturday 22 March 09:53

[anonymous-user]

bluezeeland said:

Renaldo said:

Sometimes you hear that full-synthetic is simply better oil, overall, than the regular stuff.

But I've also read that full-synthetic may not be necessary or even well-suited to classic engines.

Maybe no need to make it complicated -- I guess using a good quality oil like Castrol and changing it often is the key.

And I do, on both counts.

Ron

A synthetic oil might be the better oil, it is however not better suited to an older engine. The essex, or in your case, straight 6 are 'older' engines on all accounts, therefore the tolerances in design of the components are larger then in recent engines (simply by the capabilities of the machinery at the time they have been manufactured ) As a result you would need a more viscous (read mineral) oil. The designation of the oil required (cold start) depends on your geagraphical location (a fridge apparently in your case )

Zinc additives are, in a run in engine, not required (as far as i know) A run-in engine oil does contain zinc additives for this reason.

Using one of the well known brands can only be a plus, changing the oil (and filter) on a regular base (yearly, in my case) is just sensible ! (whatever the cost )

Frank

Edited by bluezeeland on Saturday 22 March 09:53

Don't fully agree with the first part of your response Frank but agree with the last part

[bluezeeland]

TVRMs said:

bluezeeland said:

Renaldo said:

Sometimes you hear that full-synthetic is simply better oil, overall, than the regular stuff.

But I've also read that full-synthetic may not be necessary or even well-suited to classic engines.

Maybe no need to make it complicated -- I guess using a good quality oil like Castrol and changing it often is the key.

And I do, on both counts.

Ron

A synthetic oil might be the better oil, it is however not better suited to an older engine. The essex, or in your case, straight 6 are 'older' engines on all accounts, therefore the tolerances in design of the components are larger then in recent engines (simply by the capabilities of the machinery at the time they have been manufactured ) As a result you would need a more viscous (read mineral) oil. The designation of the oil required (cold start) depends on your geagraphical location (a fridge apparently in your case )

Zinc additives are, in a run in engine, not required (as far as i know) A run-in engine oil does contain zinc additives for this reason.

Using one of the well known brands can only be a plus, changing the oil (and filter) on a regular base (yearly, in my case) is just sensible ! (whatever the cost )

Frank

Edited by bluezeeland on Saturday 22 March 09:53

Don't fully agree with the first part of your response Frank but agree with the last part

OK, why not ? (Always willing to learn......)

[anonymous-user]

bluezeeland said:

TVRMs said:

bluezeeland said:

Renaldo said:

Sometimes you hear that full-synthetic is simply better oil, overall, than the regular stuff.

But I've also read that full-synthetic may not be necessary or even well-suited to classic engines.

Maybe no need to make it complicated -- I guess using a good quality oil like Castrol and changing it often is the key.

And I do, on both counts.

Ron

A synthetic oil might be the better oil, it is however not better suited to an older engine. The essex, or in your case, straight 6 are 'older' engines on all accounts, therefore the tolerances in design of the components are larger then in recent engines (simply by the capabilities of the machinery at the time they have been manufactured ) As a result you would need a more viscous (read mineral) oil. The designation of the oil required (cold start) depends on your geagraphical location (a fridge apparently in your case )

Zinc additives are, in a run in engine, not required (as far as i know) A run-in engine oil does contain zinc additives for this reason.

Using one of the well known brands can only be a plus, changing the oil (and filter) on a regular base (yearly, in my case) is just sensible ! (whatever the cost )

Frank

Edited by bluezeeland on Saturday 22 March 09:53

Don't fully agree with the first part of your response Frank but agree with the last part

OK, why not ? (Always willing to learn......)

Frank,
It's a topic where so many opinions exist.

Mine? Many older engines can last with the protection that the mineral oils provide, however...

Turbo charged "old engines" are better on synthetic - a temperature and shedding issue due to local hot spots.

Old competition engines too benefit. We stripped a 50 hour Essex race engine last year, it had only a bent valve (driver issue) and light bearing wear. The rest was good and went back together with a new cam, bearings and rings (that engine had lived on Millers 10/60 triple ester oil changed regularly - engine builders advice). The cam was intended to be a performance upgrade from a certain Belgian cam specialist (recommended again by engine builder) would appear to have furnished me with a 60-70bhp downgrade LOL.

I agreed on the road car application of mineral oils. The above demonstrates you can not always take the advice of engine builders..however we have been running performance essex engines (close to 100bhp/litre) on synthetic oils for 20+ years without a failure or sign of oil degradation.

I'm also willing to learn too. So is a 15/40 mineral oil different to a 15/40 synthetic when it comes to managing engine tolerances??

[Renaldo]

Guys, I find this fascinating.

Let me go back briefly to the zinc additive thing. This has been flogged to death over here, and the prevailing advice seems to be that most of the newly formulated oils have had most of the zinc removed. Allegedly, oil without this zinc (as apparently older oils used to have) isn't good for classic engines. (camshaft lubrication an issue?)

There is now a thriving business over here and the U.S. of selling Triumph TR6 owners (and others) zinc additives like ZDDP, at $10 a bottle.

Is this whole zince thing a myth? Or perhaps oils in the UK and Europe are better suited?

Ron

[bluezeeland]

Right, see what you mean now ! (btw, you know what they say 'bout opinions, lol)

in my enthousiasm I was referring to 'my' system, ie fast road, which is largely the same as the OP I believe.......

In race engines on the other hand, you would use a different oil for the same reason you would not use stock cranks or cams, or pistons (belgian provider of cams ? please be so good to pm details...)

The difference in 'similar' mineral and synthetic oils is in molecules, for instance in a 'pour-test' the mineral would show longer stickiness (nothing to do with viscosity) which makes it better suited for larger tolerance classic engines

But in fact you are right, there is/are needs for parts/consumables in many an application.

(btw; is that a V8 in an M chassis ? (in your profile pic))

grtz

Frank

[bluezeeland]

Hi Ron,

Sorry, messages crossed

I do not really know/believe if a classic engine would benefit from exposure to zinc. Then again, it probably doesn't hurt...... It has been removed from the oils as it is a pollutant.

As stated a run-in oil or assembly lube does contain high zinc content, so it has positive effect on lubrication (at least at running in)

grtz

Frank

[anonymous-user]

bluezeeland said:

Right, see what you mean now ! (btw, you know what they say 'bout opinions, lol)

in my enthousiasm I was referring to 'my' system, ie fast road, which is largely the same as the OP I believe.......

In race engines on the other hand, you would use a different oil for the same reason you would not use stock cranks or cams, or pistons (belgian provider of cams ? please be so good to pm details...)

The difference in 'similar' mineral and synthetic oils is in molecules, for instance in a 'pour-test' the mineral would show longer stickiness (nothing to do with viscosity) which makes it better suited for larger tolerance classic engines

But in fact you are right, there is/are needs for parts/consumables in many an application.

(btw; is that a V8 in an M chassis ? (in your profile pic))

grtz

Frank

Hi Frank,
I was being pedantic to demonstrate that some old cars do benefit

The cam company in Belgium is CAT but no issues with them. I belive the error will be rectified.

It is a V8 in a very heavily modifed M cahssis.

[bluezeeland]

Sorry OP, to go off topic here........

CAT is only a few miles from me, if I can help, let me know !

on topic, regarding this zinc stuff, it is 'suspected' as one of the reasons for premature cam wear (along with some others) In fairness i should say, I did find some wear in cam and followers (essex)so willing to give it a try......

Has anybody used this product ? Kindly let me know

Frank

[Renaldo]

Frank, here's the stuff I've been using. It comes in a 2 oz bottle, that you add to each oil change.

Ron

[Renaldo]

And here's a photo of the latest in Castrol Synthetic oils (in Canada, at least) specially formulated for classics...

[bluezeeland]

Hi Ron,

Yes, thats the stuff, it retails at £11.69 in the UK, so will give it a try (after the run in oil)

Any effect (obviously) will show after some mileage, but planning a 'root around' in the autumn anyway

Will not go the synthetic route, for reasons outlined earlier tho.......

regards (& txs !)

Frank