How far alongside do you have to be for a legit overtake?
Discussion
After all the hoo haa with Hamilton at Monaco it has got me wondering are there any rules on how far alongside you need to be to be able to stake your claim to the corner?
I have been in similar positions to Hamilton a number of times in karts and have people just turn in on me. With one bloke I had my feet level with his knees and he turned in, I hit the brakes and he drove across the front of my kart and spun himself into the barrier. He got very grumpy about that calling me all sorts of rude names then went complaining to the stewards asking for me to be kicked out of the meeting. I thought I was well alongside and should have been given some room.
Usually if I only have my feet level with their rear wheel I will back off as generally I have not been seen so will just cause a crash.
So is there a limit we can all agree on that we can say if driver x is so far alongside driver y then they are entitled to be there?
I have been in similar positions to Hamilton a number of times in karts and have people just turn in on me. With one bloke I had my feet level with his knees and he turned in, I hit the brakes and he drove across the front of my kart and spun himself into the barrier. He got very grumpy about that calling me all sorts of rude names then went complaining to the stewards asking for me to be kicked out of the meeting. I thought I was well alongside and should have been given some room.
Usually if I only have my feet level with their rear wheel I will back off as generally I have not been seen so will just cause a crash.
So is there a limit we can all agree on that we can say if driver x is so far alongside driver y then they are entitled to be there?
EDLT said:
It is getting a bit silly isn't it?
Soon the DRS zones will be the only place you are allowed to overtake.
Very much so....Soon the DRS zones will be the only place you are allowed to overtake.
as for overlap, way I see it, if the passing car is in a position such that the car being challenged cannot take the apex without contact, that's the point.
My personal view, one that I adhere to when racing myself, is that when putting yourself in an overtaking position, you need to be confident that you will make the move work - most accidents I believe occur when the overtaker makes a half-hearted move and expects the other driver to jump out of the way.
Yes, I realise that saying this, arrogance plays a part, and there will always be two sides to every story (and ABC (advantage by contact) rules and sanctions should still apply).
Additionally, comparing karting overtakes with F1 isn't really fair when you consider how restricted the peripheral view of the latter is. However, could the teams not put some sensors on the car to tell the driver when someone is bandit-ing it up the inside of them, similar to the blind spot sensors you see on some road cars nowadays?
Yes, I realise that saying this, arrogance plays a part, and there will always be two sides to every story (and ABC (advantage by contact) rules and sanctions should still apply).
Additionally, comparing karting overtakes with F1 isn't really fair when you consider how restricted the peripheral view of the latter is. However, could the teams not put some sensors on the car to tell the driver when someone is bandit-ing it up the inside of them, similar to the blind spot sensors you see on some road cars nowadays?
I don't believe there are any hard and fast rules on exactly how far you need to be (not seen any in the Blue book anyway, there are probabaly some guidelines on the ARDS go racing DVD but i cant recall), but if i'm overtaking i want to be at least with my front wheels alongside the driver of the car im overtaking, so i can clearly be seen. If im being overtaken and someone has thier front wheels up to that point of me i know i have well and truely 'lost' that corner.
If i don't believe i could get to that stage i wouldn't attempt a move, or would be trying to 'pull out' of it. However i race for fun, as it becomes more professional the limit gets more and more blurred the higher you go up the ladder.
Watching the video of LH(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppjrZmK4eak)i'd say imo he was at least good foot or so behind where he needed to be to have 'won' the corner, and as the williams turned in he should have gone over the kerb, then conceeded the place. It all happens so quick in f1 though that it must be very hard to judge somewhere like monaco.
ETA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=estuxW9aHOg&NR=...
This clip shows Schumys move on Hamilton on lap 1, and this is a much better overtake, clearly nose and wheels up to the driver before turn in.
If i don't believe i could get to that stage i wouldn't attempt a move, or would be trying to 'pull out' of it. However i race for fun, as it becomes more professional the limit gets more and more blurred the higher you go up the ladder.
Watching the video of LH(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppjrZmK4eak)i'd say imo he was at least good foot or so behind where he needed to be to have 'won' the corner, and as the williams turned in he should have gone over the kerb, then conceeded the place. It all happens so quick in f1 though that it must be very hard to judge somewhere like monaco.
ETA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=estuxW9aHOg&NR=...
This clip shows Schumys move on Hamilton on lap 1, and this is a much better overtake, clearly nose and wheels up to the driver before turn in.
Edited by Forbes82 on Tuesday 31st May 13:58
Rule of thumb I've been told by at least one CoC is '1/3rd the length of the car alongside', i.e. if your nose is ahead of the back third of the car in front, you should expect them to concede the racing line.
In practice, unless you've PITT'd the car in front, or he's turned into your door, it'll most likely end up being a racing incident
In practice, unless you've PITT'd the car in front, or he's turned into your door, it'll most likely end up being a racing incident
its subjective obviously - depending on the corner, speeds etc etc
for me - if i'm liable to hit someones rear wheel with my front - i'm not far enough alongside and i'll back out.
if my front wheel is in past the car in fronts rear wheel - then it's my corner and they need to stay out the way - as i'm coming through.
for me - if i'm liable to hit someones rear wheel with my front - i'm not far enough alongside and i'll back out.
if my front wheel is in past the car in fronts rear wheel - then it's my corner and they need to stay out the way - as i'm coming through.
For karting, Ive always believed it to be at least halfway along the kart youre overtaking. But then people will always turn in on you if their not looking, and usually complain about you afterward. I think a decent marshall will know if you were bein optimistic or being turned in on...but again, you have to be confident, no half moves.
As far a Hamilton goes....its a tough one, it IS hard to overtake at Monaco, grnated, but the places he's was trying it...Into the first corner is risky, you kind of go from the right to the left of the track, and I dont think the Williams turned in early, and the hairpin again, it was optimistic. And if Di Resta was penalised, then there was no question. Its like Brundle said afterward, it cant always be everyone elses fault. It was the same last year in Singapore/Italy... and then to have a go at the stewards shows a lack of...well, Allan McNish was on the panel, and he's been around long enough to know whats right
As far a Hamilton goes....its a tough one, it IS hard to overtake at Monaco, grnated, but the places he's was trying it...Into the first corner is risky, you kind of go from the right to the left of the track, and I dont think the Williams turned in early, and the hairpin again, it was optimistic. And if Di Resta was penalised, then there was no question. Its like Brundle said afterward, it cant always be everyone elses fault. It was the same last year in Singapore/Italy... and then to have a go at the stewards shows a lack of...well, Allan McNish was on the panel, and he's been around long enough to know whats right
Around 1/3 to halfway alongside. However if you are overlapping another car and you aren't doing a divebomb and remain in control and can make it to the apex but they turn in and there is contact made whose fault is it going to be?
They should be aware you are there so should know if they turn in you're going to hit them, in that situation lots of people just seem to turn in get hit and them complain about the other driver. It's all very well claiming some moral high ground but it doesn't mean anything when you're in the wall/gravel trap. Just realise you must give up the corner or there will be an accident and carry on with your race!
They should be aware you are there so should know if they turn in you're going to hit them, in that situation lots of people just seem to turn in get hit and them complain about the other driver. It's all very well claiming some moral high ground but it doesn't mean anything when you're in the wall/gravel trap. Just realise you must give up the corner or there will be an accident and carry on with your race!
Having seen the racing and seen the moves I can understand what people mean when they specify 1/3 the way past or 1/2 the way past, but thats not an overtake is it, and it's just wrong on so many levels.
It relies upon the lead car to know in his tiny vibrating mirrors when a car is 1/3 the way past his tail fin, it requires these highly competitive highly motivated racers/drivers to accept they should know let someone through.
Sport isnt about thirds, you cant almost knock someone out in boxing and have the ref declare you the winner... F1 has been going wrong for years and the viewers, you and I, have been suckered along into accepting how bad it is.
A 1/3rd of an overtake is not an overtake, using your fresh set of tires to do a fast outlap and gain 1 seconds while your rival is in the pits is not an overtake, pressing your KERS and DRS buttons on a straight bit of track is not an overtake (ok so technically it is), doing 1 less tire change is not an over take, it's all b
ks, scuse my language... but we've all been so desperate to see some action that we'll accept these terrible distractions as it adds some drama to the..... I suppose I can still call it a race but it doesnt feel like it to me.
My solution now is similar to the solution I've had for years... much much less aero grip, no traction control, a return to manual gearboxes (the more there is for the driver to do, the more there is for him to get wrong), 1 engine per race weekend and give the teams an option of engine layouts like the old days of light V8s, medium V10s and heavy but powerful V12s
The sport needs an overhaul, not measurements 1/3 of the way up the car.
It relies upon the lead car to know in his tiny vibrating mirrors when a car is 1/3 the way past his tail fin, it requires these highly competitive highly motivated racers/drivers to accept they should know let someone through.
Sport isnt about thirds, you cant almost knock someone out in boxing and have the ref declare you the winner... F1 has been going wrong for years and the viewers, you and I, have been suckered along into accepting how bad it is.
A 1/3rd of an overtake is not an overtake, using your fresh set of tires to do a fast outlap and gain 1 seconds while your rival is in the pits is not an overtake, pressing your KERS and DRS buttons on a straight bit of track is not an overtake (ok so technically it is), doing 1 less tire change is not an over take, it's all b
ks, scuse my language... but we've all been so desperate to see some action that we'll accept these terrible distractions as it adds some drama to the..... I suppose I can still call it a race but it doesnt feel like it to me.My solution now is similar to the solution I've had for years... much much less aero grip, no traction control, a return to manual gearboxes (the more there is for the driver to do, the more there is for him to get wrong), 1 engine per race weekend and give the teams an option of engine layouts like the old days of light V8s, medium V10s and heavy but powerful V12s
The sport needs an overhaul, not measurements 1/3 of the way up the car.
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