Virgin drops Wirth, all-CFD path; targets Russian podium

[skwdenyer]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91924

Pat Symonds has successfully built the platform for his return to F1, it seems; Nick Wirth's reputation may take a little longer to restore, sadly.

[egomeister]

skwdenyer said:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91924

Pat Symonds has successfully built the platform for his return to F1, it seems; Nick Wirth's reputation may take a little longer to restore, sadly.

Sadly? He seems obsessed with doing things because they are different, rather than because they are the best engineering solution.

Now that they are ditching the CFD only approach, Virgin stand a chance of making some progress. Good luck to them!

[Alfie Noakes]

One day CFD will be all and wind tunnels will be forgotten.

Funny world.

[Jungles]

Alfie Noakes said:

One day CFD will be all and wind tunnels will be forgotten.

Funny world.

But not yet.

There was once a time when mobile phones were supposed to allow us to look up bus timetables, exchange emails, and such. It took nearly ten years for that vision to come to fruition.

Eventually, CFD will be sophisticated enough, but not yet. Give it another 20 years.

[telecat]

CFD has the same problems that weather forecasting has. Airflow is an EVER changing thing.

[Life Saab Itch]

Funny that. I was outside their place the other day...on a weekday...before a GP...and the place was shut up. The) wind tunnel around the corner was very busy though...

[egomeister]

Life Saab Itch said:

Funny that. I was outside their place the other day...on a weekday...before a GP...and the place was shut up. The) wind tunnel around the corner was very busy though...

That might be because they've moved to Banbury...

[skwdenyer]

egomeister said:

Sadly? He seems obsessed with doing things because they are different, rather than because they are the best engineering solution.

Now that they are ditching the CFD only approach, Virgin stand a chance of making some progress. Good luck to them!

Sadly for Wirth. I'm no great fan of his, but he proposed a brave solution to the team, they bought into it, and it hasn't panned out. My suspicion is that what Wirth should have done was got an experience technical lead in to direct the design of the car - there aren't enough seconds left in the life of the universe to iterate a good design from a bad one in CFD or other sims using current computers.

I remember some years ago somebody experienced (who is now a chief designer for one of the teams) telling me he thought there were - at that time - only two people in F1 who really, truly, deep-down understood F1 cars to the extent that they could sketch out a solution which would work most of the time; they were Newey and Murray. Murray is gone from F1, and Newey's abilities are there for all to see. With somebody who understands, CFD could be great, but it seems Wirth was trying to use it to direct development as well as optimise the designs, which was rather more than brave IMHO.

This gut feeling was born out somewhat at Monaco; the Virgin car seemed without mechanical grip as much as it lacks aero grip in other places. CFD is not going to fix poor chassis design! Where was the established, experienced chassis designer to get that part of the platform right?

[pedromorgan]

Question from a thickie........

I thought the chassis was the one part that could be effectivly designed using FEA. whereas the aero would be probmematic due to the revolving wheels and a very turbulant airflow.

Am i wrong?

Peter

[Life Saab Itch]

egomeister said:

That might be because they've moved to Banbury...

That'd do it.

[anonymous-user]

Funny how this is being reported. I first saw this on ESPN F1 where it sounds like Virgin have just decided to take a different approach.

Then I go to the BBC and it's like I've just gone on the daily sport. They make it sound like Branson has walked in this morning and said "fk off nick".

"Virgin Racing have axed technical director Nick Wirth"
"Virgin Racing fire technical director Nick Wirth"
"Virgin dimiss technical director"

Terrible.

[skwdenyer]

MSTRBKR said:

Funny how this is being reported. I first saw this on ESPN F1 where it sounds like Virgin have just decided to take a different approach.

Then I go to the BBC and it's like I've just gone on the daily sport. They make it sound like Branson has walked in this morning and said "fk off nick".

"Virgin Racing have axed technical director Nick Wirth"
"Virgin Racing fire technical director Nick Wirth"
"Virgin dimiss technical director"

Terrible.

Well... one day he was TD and the next he wasn't. Maybe not yesterday, maybe not today, etc... Since he was TD and he was irrevocably connected to the CFD-only approach, it doesn't seem unreasonable to report it that way; after all, it is exactly what it says on the tin, a vote of no confidence in Wirth as TD.

It wouldn't be Branson, however; afaik he doesn't actually own any of the team, does he?

[tank slapper]

pedromorgan said:

Question from a thickie........

I thought the chassis was the one part that could be effectivly designed using FEA. whereas the aero would be probmematic due to the revolving wheels and a very turbulant airflow.

Am i wrong?

Peter

Designing structural components with FEA is possible because you are simulating a largely static system - there is some movement in terms of flex and thermal expansion etc, but the materials themselves are consistent. Simulating fluid behaviour is hard because the material is constantly changing, and you have to account for the interactions within the fluid. The reason why designing something purely with CFD is problematic is that the mathematical models used are only an approximation to what really happens - it's very hard to predict chaotic behaviour because small changes can have large consequences.

An example of the difference is to look at pendulums. A single pendulum is easy to predict as its motion is described by a simple equation. If you have a double pendulum, the problem is much more difficult - look at how a double pendulum behaves, even though it looks like a very simple system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VmTiyTut6A&fea...

[Rude-boy]

Can't have helped Wirth having certain jurnos 3/4 of the way up his arse half the time though let's face it

[ady_GTi]

I always thought, as someone mentioned above that it was the ideas holding things back more so than the actual CFD.

If you dont have someone like a Newey, regardless of if you have a wind tunnel or CFD your not going to make any progress. Its not just Virgin who havnt moved from the back of the grid.

[Ponk]

MSTRBKR said:

Funny how this is being reported. I first saw this on ESPN F1 where it sounds like Virgin have just decided to take a different approach.

Then I go to the BBC and it's like I've just gone on the daily sport. They make it sound like Branson has walked in this morning and said "fk off nick".

"Virgin Racing have axed technical director Nick Wirth"
"Virgin Racing fire technical director Nick Wirth"
"Virgin dimiss technical director"

Terrible.

I first read this on Autosport last night. Then F1 Fanatic and the FOM website. They were all pretty neutral in their reporting. I saw the Beeb article at lunch today and as you say, it was a totally overblown article.

[skwdenyer]

Ponk said:

I first read this on Autosport last night. Then F1 Fanatic and the FOM website. They were all pretty neutral in their reporting. I saw the Beeb article at lunch today and as you say, it was a totally overblown article.

From a team perspective, it is a simple change of direction and the termination of a contract. For Wirth and his employees it is a pretty firm kick in the teeth; how many of those staff will be out of jobs now? I suspect they feel as though the BBC have pitched it about right. Did Wirth Research have any other contracts at the moment?

[Ipelm]

They have produced a pretty amazing LMP1

[Ponk]

Ipelm said:

They have produced a pretty amazing LMP1

Yup, they do a lot of other stuff outside motorsport too apparently. My friend's dad works for them so I think although this is a blow they should be ok.

[RenesisEvo]

Ponk said:

Yup, they do a lot of other stuff outside motorsport too apparently. My friend's dad works for them so I think although this is a blow they should be ok.

I work for them... fun times, is all I can say.