Is Motorsport a Labour of Love or a profitable pastime?
Discussion
I've been wondering, are racing drivers all entering cars out of their own pocket purely to get great seat time at their hobby, or are any of them making money at it?
Obviously I'm not talking about F1 and the bigger events with fully sponsored racing teams where it's basically a business.
Things like the MX5 Championship, Clio Cup and smaller club events, where one or two drivers might enter a car that they own.
Is it all out of their own pocket? Where is the stage that sponsors come into it and would they be there to offset the costs of the car or do the drivers start getting a pay out of it?
Obviously I'm not talking about F1 and the bigger events with fully sponsored racing teams where it's basically a business.
Things like the MX5 Championship, Clio Cup and smaller club events, where one or two drivers might enter a car that they own.
Is it all out of their own pocket? Where is the stage that sponsors come into it and would they be there to offset the costs of the car or do the drivers start getting a pay out of it?
Paid drivers are F1 drivers, NASCAR driver, Indycar drivers, WRC drivers, almost everybody else pays, all BTCC drivers pay, every GT driver and WTCC etc, sometimes they may get a free drive as a driver pairing with the other driver footing the bill, or they/dad own the company that is the main sponsor which imho is still them paying to drive, unless you have deep pockets and massive talent forget getting yourself in the position to even get a chance at paid to drive.
Racing = Spending money, it has to come from somewhere and try getting a company to part with 150k to fund a years racing in clio cup or formula ford.
Racing = Spending money, it has to come from somewhere and try getting a company to part with 150k to fund a years racing in clio cup or formula ford.
I think there are actually quite a few paid drivers out there due to all the well off gentleman drivers who want to go GT racing. Part of the cost of running in a GT championship is employing the services of a professional driver in order to get you up the grid and give you a fighting chance in the race. There are plenty of Britcar teams that operate like this and I know of at least one in LMS.
Back in the early 90's I did the Ford Rs2000 series. everything on the car was paid for, I paid entry fees, but I got to keep the prize money, sometimes over £2000 per weekend.
Only lasted for 2 years though as it was costing Ford waaaay to much money.
I guess I broke even or a bit ahead, so was I paid/ Did it cost a lot of money to run in a manufacturer supported series? Nope. Was I a jammy beggar? Yep.
Only lasted for 2 years though as it was costing Ford waaaay to much money.
I guess I broke even or a bit ahead, so was I paid/ Did it cost a lot of money to run in a manufacturer supported series? Nope. Was I a jammy beggar? Yep.
ZeeTacoe said:
Most WRC drivers pay too.
Yeah, Loeb, Ogier- Citroen, Sordo & Meeke- Mini. I'm not totally sure Ford's drivers are paid - they both have the same Manager, who is famous for doing deals for his Finnish drivers. The rest rely on sponsors, or pay for their drives. Petter Solberg had to set up his own team to get a drive.DanDC5 said:
I'm still baffled how any race team manages to turn a profit tbh.
really?do you think it actually costs £100k to run a Clio for a year? my guess is that it costs about £40k, but they charge what they can get away with based on market conditions and how good they are.
one of the favourite tricks of race teams, is getting the novice/new to series driver/wealthy amateur/ etc to cough say £xxxx to do a 2 race, and then have the car fail on him after 2 laps.
team still get paid, driver pays for the team to essentially rebuild the car for free, which they should have done for the race, but driver goes home unhappy, team go home happy and with 10k in the bank.
Jerry Can said:
do you think it actually costs £100k to run a Clio for a year? my guess is that it costs about £40k, but they charge what they can get away with based on market conditions and how good they are.
As the owner of an ex Clio Cup car, paying Renaultsport parts prices, I can easily see how a season in the Clio Cup might cost £100k and more......Seriously though, I was standing in the Renaultsport parts truck at Croft last year collecting a few bits for our car, a Pyro mechanic comes in for repair parts for a driver that's had a minor off - a quick mental tot up of the parts at RSport prices came to over 5 grand, this was for wing, headlight, bonnet etc. - purely cosmetic parts that would have been half that fitted at a dealer, never mind from a scrapper.
For example, headlight faring for our car, consists of the plastic road car headlight cover - it even comes unpainted from Renaultsport, they make no pretence it's anything but the standard 182 part - Renaultsport price £145, Renault dealer, £95, Scrapper £5.
Jerry Can said:
really?
do you think it actually costs £100k to run a Clio for a year? my guess is that it costs about £40k, but they charge what they can get away with based on market conditions and how good they are.
one of the favourite tricks of race teams, is getting the novice/new to series driver/wealthy amateur/ etc to cough say £xxxx to do a 2 race, and then have the car fail on him after 2 laps.
team still get paid, driver pays for the team to essentially rebuild the car for free, which they should have done for the race, but driver goes home unhappy, team go home happy and with 10k in the bank.
I'm fairly certain that doesn't happen, and yes it does cost that much to run a clio for a year.....just think about the costs involved, you're talking 2 or 3 race engineers/mechanics that need paying, tyres (which aren't cheap), race fuel (about £2.50 a litre iirc), engine rebuilds, suspension/gearbox failures, brakes, and before when I said about the race engineers its not just the lest just say £80 a day, its the hotel and food, transport to and from circuit...getting the car there and back, average is around £200 per race in fuel, then you've got wear and tear on the trailer etc.do you think it actually costs £100k to run a Clio for a year? my guess is that it costs about £40k, but they charge what they can get away with based on market conditions and how good they are.
one of the favourite tricks of race teams, is getting the novice/new to series driver/wealthy amateur/ etc to cough say £xxxx to do a 2 race, and then have the car fail on him after 2 laps.
team still get paid, driver pays for the team to essentially rebuild the car for free, which they should have done for the race, but driver goes home unhappy, team go home happy and with 10k in the bank.
If a driver is paying for his seat you are looking at 4-6k per weekend easily, going off the higher 6k thats 72k after 12 rounds, then you have the buying of the car to think about.... and insurance.
Racing is expensive, very expensive. From experience, the hotel/food costs alone for a weekend racing for a 4 man team including the driver is a whisker shy of 1k, wages and transport another 1k easily... it adds up. Dont forget, you've got friday, saturday and sunday to think about.
Maybe if you buy a shoddy car on the cheap and you are the driver and mechanic, trailering it yourself and sleeping in a motorhome, you could do it (without buying the car) on 10-15k if you keep it on the track and have no mechanical failures. Another thing to remember is that race cars break, and they break easily and sometimes without any real reason other than stress on parts.
HTH
Jerry Can said:
DanDC5 said:
I'm still baffled how any race team manages to turn a profit tbh.
really?do you think it actually costs £100k to run a Clio for a year? my guess is that it costs about £40k, but they charge what they can get away with based on market conditions and how good they are.
one of the favourite tricks of race teams, is getting the novice/new to series driver/wealthy amateur/ etc to cough say £xxxx to do a 2 race, and then have the car fail on him after 2 laps.
team still get paid, driver pays for the team to essentially rebuild the car for free, which they should have done for the race, but driver goes home unhappy, team go home happy and with 10k in the bank.
There are literally millions of those people wandering around.
EDLT said:
It really is so easy, all they have to do is find a queue of rich stupid people who won't do any research or ruin your reputation by telling anyone how they were treated or forget to put anything in their contract about mechanical failures.
There are literally millions of those people wandering around.
there are more than you might think.There are literally millions of those people wandering around.
If you look into gt racing or similar at international or club level, the amount of car failures after just a handful of laps is truly depressing. Granted some of it is unlucky, but there are a lot of unscrupulous team managers out there that will take a wet behind the ears no mark drivers money, and do the absolute least in preparation terms. Sometimes the driver gets lucky and the car lasts, quite often it does not. And that is a calculated decision by the team owner. But my view is if you are paying the market rate, and generally for novices substantially more, the car should be cock on, and should not fail due to a mechanical issue unless driver abuse or a manufacturing defect.
Ask yourself the question? Why does a car fail on a race or rally on the first lap or stage. Its down to either, there not being enough money from the owner/ driver to prepare the car properly so he takes a risk and hopes it last, or the car just hasn't been prepared properly with the fee charged.
There are many many sharks out there and they will take your money and do the least with it - if you are a no one.
jarnold88 said:
I'm fairly certain that doesn't happen, and yes it does cost that much to run a clio for a year.....just think about the costs involved, you're talking 2 or 3 race engineers/mechanics that need paying, tyres (which aren't cheap), race fuel (about £2.50 a litre iirc), engine rebuilds, suspension/gearbox failures, brakes, and before when I said about the race engineers its not just the lest just say £80 a day, its the hotel and food, transport to and from circuit...getting the car there and back, average is around £200 per race in fuel, then you've got wear and tear on the trailer etc.
If a driver is paying for his seat you are looking at 4-6k per weekend easily, going off the higher 6k thats 72k after 12 rounds, then you have the buying of the car to think about.... and insurance.
Racing is expensive, very expensive. From experience, the hotel/food costs alone for a weekend racing for a 4 man team including the driver is a whisker shy of 1k, wages and transport another 1k easily... it adds up. Dont forget, you've got friday, saturday and sunday to think about.
Maybe if you buy a shoddy car on the cheap and you are the driver and mechanic, trailering it yourself and sleeping in a motorhome, you could do it (without buying the car) on 10-15k if you keep it on the track and have no mechanical failures. Another thing to remember is that race cars break, and they break easily and sometimes without any real reason other than stress on parts.
HTH
i have raced for 15 + years, I have a fair idea what it costs.If a driver is paying for his seat you are looking at 4-6k per weekend easily, going off the higher 6k thats 72k after 12 rounds, then you have the buying of the car to think about.... and insurance.
Racing is expensive, very expensive. From experience, the hotel/food costs alone for a weekend racing for a 4 man team including the driver is a whisker shy of 1k, wages and transport another 1k easily... it adds up. Dont forget, you've got friday, saturday and sunday to think about.
Maybe if you buy a shoddy car on the cheap and you are the driver and mechanic, trailering it yourself and sleeping in a motorhome, you could do it (without buying the car) on 10-15k if you keep it on the track and have no mechanical failures. Another thing to remember is that race cars break, and they break easily and sometimes without any real reason other than stress on parts.
HTH
Accident damage is usually on top of the fee to run the car, or the fee is higher and includes insurance. So I don't subscribe to your costings. Any fee will include what the team owner wants to get from the deal to pay for his salary, and he'll want more salary the more competitive his car is.
equally your fig of 72k per season back up my point that it doesn't cost 100k. The car is a depreciating asset which is factored into the rental, if bought 2nd hand might be sold for the same money. Also it 10 rounds for Clio's which at your lower fig makes 40k.
Believe me when I tell you that these teams don't work for free or to cover costs. They make a profit and that's what you are paying for.
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