Time for equal treatment at Red Bull
Discussion
I noticed that Red Bull yet again only brought one upgraded front wing to Abu Dhabi. Now that Red Bull have the championship sown up does anyone else think that it is time to redress the balance and give Maaaaaaaaaaaark equal treatment?
Or do you think that the ego of the Golden Child couldn't cope with the having to compete on an equal basis?
Red Bull gives you wings? Not if your name is Webber
Or do you think that the ego of the Golden Child couldn't cope with the having to compete on an equal basis?
Red Bull gives you wings? Not if your name is Webber
Mark dropped a b
k keeping his late season injury from the team until after the season was finished. He should have either kept his mouth shut about it, or told them the minute it happened. Publishing a book and Horner et al finding out about it that way was not a smart move.
That didn't enamour him to the "management", maybe next year he wont be so off the pace.
k keeping his late season injury from the team until after the season was finished. He should have either kept his mouth shut about it, or told them the minute it happened. Publishing a book and Horner et al finding out about it that way was not a smart move.That didn't enamour him to the "management", maybe next year he wont be so off the pace.
Really unless you have total domination (eg McLaren 88-90) you shouldn't really have 2 possible championship winning drivers in the same team or they just take points off one another. Example, Hamilton/Alonso 2006, Vettel/Webber 2009, Button/Hamilton 2010&2011.
If you want to win you need one driver to regularly take big points and the other lesser points. If Webber has identical kit to Vettel and does what he did in 2009, win races, neither could win it as they will be taking points off each other, as Hamilton and Button (both with 3 wins) have this year.
If you want to win you need one driver to regularly take big points and the other lesser points. If Webber has identical kit to Vettel and does what he did in 2009, win races, neither could win it as they will be taking points off each other, as Hamilton and Button (both with 3 wins) have this year.
FourWheelDrift said:
Really unless you have total domination (eg McLaren 88-90) you shouldn't really have 2 possible championship winning drivers in the same team or they just take points off one another. Example, Hamilton/Alonso 2006, Vettel/Webber 2009, Button/Hamilton 2010&2011.
If you want to win you need one driver to regularly take big points and the other lesser points. If Webber has identical kit to Vettel and does what he did in 2009, win races, neither could win it as they will be taking points off each other, as Hamilton and Button (both with 3 wins) have this year.
totally correct i have tried explaining this to people all year. as long as one picks up the mega points the other basicly just has to finish in a respectable position.If you want to win you need one driver to regularly take big points and the other lesser points. If Webber has identical kit to Vettel and does what he did in 2009, win races, neither could win it as they will be taking points off each other, as Hamilton and Button (both with 3 wins) have this year.
johnfelstead said:
Alonso/Massa blows that theory away.
If your car isnt up to the job, it doesnt matter what driver pairing you have. I'd rather have two potential winners than one in my team.
in this situation a team can't win the drivers championship but with 2 good drivers the constructors would be possible. If your car isnt up to the job, it doesnt matter what driver pairing you have. I'd rather have two potential winners than one in my team.
radlet6 said:
I noticed that Red Bull yet again only brought one upgraded front wing to Abu Dhabi. Now that Red Bull have the championship sown up does anyone else think that it is time to redress the balance and give Maaaaaaaaaaaark equal treatment?
Any proof that Mark is given a technically inferior car to Vettel this season? Paddock source, please.Even Mark himself says the bias is emotional, not technical.
FourWheelDrift said:
Really unless you have total domination (eg McLaren 88-90) you shouldn't really have 2 possible championship winning drivers in the same team or they just take points off one another. Example, Hamilton/Alonso 2006, Vettel/Webber 2009, Button/Hamilton 2010&2011.
If you want to win you need one driver to regularly take big points and the other lesser points. If Webber has identical kit to Vettel and does what he did in 2009, win races, neither could win it as they will be taking points off each other, as Hamilton and Button (both with 3 wins) have this year.
That assumes that a clear number 1/2 relationship there would have given one driver more wins at the expense of the other. For McLaren this year I can't think that this has been the case at all. If you want to win you need one driver to regularly take big points and the other lesser points. If Webber has identical kit to Vettel and does what he did in 2009, win races, neither could win it as they will be taking points off each other, as Hamilton and Button (both with 3 wins) have this year.
Also in their case it seems like (on good days) they actually push each other on and get more out of the car than either driver would with a pliant number 2.
Hopefully next season at least one of them will be in with a real shout at a WDC in the closing few races of the season, that would be a good time to start playing the team game.
Jungles said:
Any proof that Mark is given a technically inferior car to Vettel this season? Paddock source, please.
Even Mark himself says the bias is emotional, not technical.
Yes, for the last two races at least only Vettel has recieved the upgraded front wing.Even Mark himself says the bias is emotional, not technical.
And this is my point. Why, when the championship is over are they still running two different cars to which end Vettel gets the benefit?
radlet6 said:
Yes, for the last two races at least only Vettel has recieved the upgraded front wing.
And this is my point. Why, when the championship is over are they still running two different cars to which end Vettel gets the benefit?
I would have thought the wings were a development part(not guaranteed to be faster?) for next years evolution. Since Vettel IS the superior driver than 2012's car will be built around him. Also Webber's current Red Bull Spec is much better than his finishing position.And this is my point. Why, when the championship is over are they still running two different cars to which end Vettel gets the benefit?
Moobs said:
Also Webber's current Red Bull Spec is much better than his finishing position.
This is unfortunately the thing.Webber has a car which is surely better than most other cars on the grid. So why isn't he finishing 2nd a lot?
If they were equally good at getting the best out of the car, then they'd get equal treatment. However, the bottom line is that the team are set behind Seb at all times, and it is for him to win. Mark is there to cover Seb's backside.
FourWheelDrift said:
Really unless you have total domination (eg McLaren 88-90) you shouldn't really have 2 possible championship winning drivers in the same team or they just take points off one another. Example, Hamilton/Alonso 2006, Vettel/Webber 2009, Button/Hamilton 2010&2011.
If you want to win you need one driver to regularly take big points and the other lesser points. If Webber has identical kit to Vettel and does what he did in 2009, win races, neither could win it as they will be taking points off each other, as Hamilton and Button (both with 3 wins) have this year.
It might be worse from a WDC point of view but its a better option from a WCC perspective, and thats where all the prizemoney comes from.If you want to win you need one driver to regularly take big points and the other lesser points. If Webber has identical kit to Vettel and does what he did in 2009, win races, neither could win it as they will be taking points off each other, as Hamilton and Button (both with 3 wins) have this year.
radlet6 said:
Yes, for the last two races at least only Vettel has recieved the upgraded front wing.
That is not proof. That is an unsubstantiated claim. At least you should have a reliable source, preferably from the paddock, or at least from reputable motorsport media.I'm sure that if Mark felt disadvantaged, he would have made it known to the media. He's not a roll-over puppy.
Jungles said:
That is not proof. That is an unsubstantiated claim. At least you should have a reliable source, preferably from the paddock, or at least from reputable motorsport media.
I'm sure that if Mark felt disadvantaged, he would have made it known to the media. He's not a roll-over puppy.
Lots of internet discussion this time last year when Horner gave an interview to Autosport saying that all efforts would be put behind Seb for 2011 as they saw his chances as better than Mark's for the championship. Mark would have to do what he could with what he was given.I'm sure that if Mark felt disadvantaged, he would have made it known to the media. He's not a roll-over puppy.
Surely the team orders at Silverstone may have made you question the "no number 1" status of the team.
Given how fast the RBR is I wonder if it suits them down to the ground having Webber where he is, ie just off the podium. Surely silences all those cheating claims whilst at the same time showing the golden child off? It also makes the racing more interesting not having one manufacturer end up with a 1/2 every race.
I'm not sure I believe that statement but in the world of f1 I can well imagine they think it down to that level.
I'm not sure I believe that statement but in the world of f1 I can well imagine they think it down to that level.
To be honest, it probably suits Red Bull this way, as it means Vettel keeps winning and is the new F1 Golden Boy, and means Webber can't show him up as not the special force that he appears to be, in theory at least.
We can sit and speculate until the end of time, but Red Bull have chosen to give Fingers the wing and not Webber, possibly because they feel Vettel is younger and therefore gives them more chance for more titles, but who knows.
We can sit and speculate until the end of time, but Red Bull have chosen to give Fingers the wing and not Webber, possibly because they feel Vettel is younger and therefore gives them more chance for more titles, but who knows.
snowy slopes said:
To be honest, it probably suits Red Bull this way, as it means Vettel keeps winning and is the new F1 Golden Boy, and means Webber can't show him up as not the special force that he appears to be, in theory at least.
We can sit and speculate until the end of time, but Red Bull have chosen to give Fingers the wing and not Webber, possibly because they feel Vettel is younger and therefore gives them more chance for more titles, but who knows.
German star in an Austrian team.... Draw your own conclusions.We can sit and speculate until the end of time, but Red Bull have chosen to give Fingers the wing and not Webber, possibly because they feel Vettel is younger and therefore gives them more chance for more titles, but who knows.
I certainly think that Seb gets better treatment both in terms of emotionally and slightly technically then Mark does but I seriously doubt it goes very far in justifying the differential in results.
I didn't have a lot of time for Webber early on his career - I felt that he had raw pace but poor racecraft and everything was always someone ele's fault, in 09 and 10 though I'll give him credit that he seemed to be improving his driving even if he still whinged rather a great deal. This year he has demonstrated on more than one occasion that he is quite capable of getting some very quick times out of what is, even if not "designed around him" is still a very quick car in anybody's hands (IMO). The difference between him and Vettel for me this season has been that Webber has continually missed the boat in qualifying and when he has managed a good result on a Saturday he has fluffed the start and gone backwards, either way he finds him self running in the middle of the points surrounded by drivers whose car might only be 90-something percent as good as the RB but are themselves better drivers than Webber, add to that the fact that the design philosphy of the RB leads to a relatively poor straight line speed at a lot of circuits and he's going to struggle to get much in the way of second places.
I didn't have a lot of time for Webber early on his career - I felt that he had raw pace but poor racecraft and everything was always someone ele's fault, in 09 and 10 though I'll give him credit that he seemed to be improving his driving even if he still whinged rather a great deal. This year he has demonstrated on more than one occasion that he is quite capable of getting some very quick times out of what is, even if not "designed around him" is still a very quick car in anybody's hands (IMO). The difference between him and Vettel for me this season has been that Webber has continually missed the boat in qualifying and when he has managed a good result on a Saturday he has fluffed the start and gone backwards, either way he finds him self running in the middle of the points surrounded by drivers whose car might only be 90-something percent as good as the RB but are themselves better drivers than Webber, add to that the fact that the design philosphy of the RB leads to a relatively poor straight line speed at a lot of circuits and he's going to struggle to get much in the way of second places.
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