Williams: how much longer?

[Jimbo.]

A big fan from their Mansell/Red 5/Renault days (I was 10!), it pains me to see them wallowing around towards the bottom of the field, looking for paid-seat drivers. Patrick Head's gone and they've now joined the prestigious ranks of HRT and Virgin by playing musical chairs on a Friday with a third driver.

So, how much longer before they go?

[Life Saab Itch]

I hope that Frank can find a decent buyer. It would be an incredible loss to the sport if they went bust.

[EDLT]

Life Saab Itch said:

I hope that Frank can find a decent buyer. It would be an incredible loss to the sport if they went bust.

He could have sold some of it to Raikonnen, giving them the money they need and (potentially) a top driver.

[scrwright]

They are going a bit the way of Tyrrell aren't they, well past the glory days. Will they go the way of Arrows or with they get bought out like Tyrrell? Either way they cannot continue as they are.

[projectgt]

Got to be a manufacturer or brand to survive these days. Sad but true.

[m0rris]

The sad thing is that Williams could have made themselves "a brand" like Mclaren have done. They are, to their credit, branching out and getting involved in the new green technology which could pocket them some money.

As for how much longer. I can't really see them lasting a couple more years if they have another disastrous season. Afterall in tough times who the hell is going to try and get sponsorship on a car that only gets shown when Maldonado either crashes it or fails to heed blue flags.

If Williams were to survive long term they'd have needed Frank Williams to go a couple of years ago, not let things fester like they are today. But, its his team and his rules.

[Streps]

I noticed before how Williams himself looks frail.
How longer is he going to be at races?

Patrick just leaving ... but anyone good replacing him?

For the team...I hope they manage to get back..
But this slow spiral has been happening for a long time now..
Might be too late.

But who knows? something big needs to change to get them back to their former selves.
Keeping Maldonardo for another year will give them more money.. but they need a decent driver.

I think personally they missed it when they split from BMW..

Edited by Streps on Friday 2nd December 19:53

[EDLT]

projectgt said:

Got to be a manufacturer or brand to survive these days. Sad but true.

Sauber, Torro Rosso, Force India and Red Bull all manage. Renault is basically an independent team, they just have a manufacturer as a main sponsor.

[williamp]

They do a lor of work through the engineering arm- the Porsche flywheel hybrid system thingy, for example is Williams. But I agree with the sentiment regarding the F1 team. Alwasy supported them ever since they put the tash in the white, yellow and blue cars. Its sad to see them today

[mattikake]

scrwright said:

They are going a bit the way of Tyrrell aren't they, well past the glory days. Will they go the way of Arrows or with they get bought out like Tyrrell? Either way they cannot continue as they are.

I noticed this parallel too! Maybe because it's all too common.

Williams to my childhood was the team to beat. Sad how they've faded. The early '00's looked like a bit of a resurgence, but no.

They still innovate though. I was hoping their extra low ghearbox and angled suspension may have made a leap... or the flywheel KERS system (needed to be in an era with a free reign, not a 80bhp 6.7s cap), but no.

For once their only hope is that sport is fickle. Hopefully 2013 can provide a power reshuffle?

[Ultuous]

EDLT said:

projectgt said:

Got to be a manufacturer or brand to survive these days. Sad but true.

Sauber, Torro Rosso, Force India and Red Bull all manage. Renault is basically an independent team, they just have a manufacturer as a main sponsor.

I agree with projectgt's sentiment though - Sauber are the only team mentioned above that don't rely heavily on a huge brand or manufacturer for support (RB/ TR - Red Bull, FI - Kingfisher)... I don't think anyone can be where Williams were in the glory days anymore whilst being operated as an 'independent'...

As for the Renault analogy, I don't see it as being any different from any of the other OEM named teams - ignoring the red herring that is the 'Renault' name (bear in mind they pulled out a while ago and the team is being renamed for 2012 - AND they've also appeared to have had funding problems this year) the F1 division will be a very separate entity - much as they'll want to convince Joe Public of technology transfer it really is very minimal in this day and age!

(I hope I'm still cogent and I don't regret writing any the above tomorrow - enjoying a rather fine bottle of Rioja right now!

[Shotgun Rider]

EDLT said:

He could have sold some of it to Raikonnen, giving them the money they need and (potentially) a top driver.

Weren't all the stories about Raikonnen getting equity for driving and not actually buying into the team?

I bet they wish that they gave Adrian Newey equity back in the early 90s.

[yorkieboy]

Patrick Head Is working with Jaguar cars working on a Williams Hybrid technology for the CX75. My bet Is that there might be a Williams/Jaguar F1 team with advanced hybrid technology in the future.

[Nick3point2]

Pah, I might be biased based on my occupation but Williams hybrid power are WAY behind in flywheel hybrid technology.

[JCW]

Life Saab Itch said:

I hope that Frank can find a decent buyer. It would be an incredible loss to the sport if they went bust.

This is their problem. Every credible equity investor has always been rebuffed by Frank Williams; Newey, BMW and even Raikkonen so unless he can swallow his pride then they're not going to be around for long which is a shame as I've supported them for so long. Remember reading about the formation of WGPE back in the late '70s when I was a kid with the Saudi investment but I'm at the point now that I don't believe its salvageable with the current team owners in place.

[Mojocvh]

Disclaimer 1- I do feel for all those employed either directly or indirectly by williams...

BUT

I have an intense dislike of the whole bloody organisation, stemming from their dealings with DH after he won his first championship...

and I couldn't care less if they stay or go...

[m0rris]

JCW said:

I don't believe its salvageable with the current team owners in place.

I think one of the Williams that we know is going to die in the next few years, I'd suspect that its the F1 thats going to go. It'll be the greatest loss to motorsport, in terms of heritage, for many years but in terms of actual racing and it pains me to say this they will be no loss.

He's been through alot, has Sir Frank, and I have alot of respect for him in terms of the success he has achieved and not giving up when he had his awful accident. However, from what I've gathered over the years he's not a nice man to do business with and it sounds like someone needs to take him to one side and tell him the team will die if he doesn't move on.

Williams is the equivalent of the classic car marooned on someones drive that is going to be restored "next year". They are in decline and the owner is unwilling to take the necessary measures to save the car... Williams needs new equity and management but thats not appearing.

[Rich_W]

Streps said:

.

I think personally they missed it when they split from BMW..

BMW did offer to buy the team at that point. But Williams and Head refused. Obviously, they bought Sauber. But as we saw they pulled out at short notice (albeit leaving Sauber better off than before the deal) So manufacturers are fickle at times. I suspect BMW Williams being owned by Munich would have lasted longer than BMW-Sauber as they would have still been winning regularly. Nice to see Montoya in the WillyBM still holds lap record at Interlagos. Who knows what the future holds though. If BM came back as an engine supplier/part sponsor, it could re-invigorate the team...

Shotgun Rider said:

I bet they wish that they gave Adrian Newey equity back in the early 90s.

Newey left because his contract was up, and he didn't like the fact they fired Damon. Also Ron said he'd be able to design those Racing Yachts in the future for McLaren (never happened though) I "believe" Ron letting DC go had some bearing on Neweys mind as well. (not that it was a bad decision DC was on the end of his career then) Seems to be a patriotic loyal type, hence he went to RBR a year/2 later.

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 4th December 12:48

[Redlake27]

I think Williams future lies with a greater Renault tie-up.

Having pushed their own team into Genii ownership and Lotus branding, Renault have limited publicity opportunities in F1 now. Sister company Infiniti has the partnership with Red Bull, and seems to be a successful marketing initiative. However, it is as difficult to promote Renault alongside Infiniti as it is Lotus.

Renaultsport make some of the best drivers cars in the world, but despite their brilliance they cannot get Audi-level pricing for them. They need a premium sub-brand with credibility and history. They tried last year by relaunching Gordini, but failed.

I think Williams could be to Renault what AMG and Alpina are to Merc and BMW. There is history there (F1 Championships, Touring Cars and the Clio Williams).

However brilliant the Megane 250 Trophy is, it needs some prestige to get S3 and Golf R drivers into it. A Williams-Renault Megane, licenced by Renault having some stake in Williams F1, is more appealing.

Having an outlet for junior Renault drivers would be great too.

[thiscocks]

Streps said:

I noticed before how Williams himself looks frail.
How longer is he going to be at races?

Patrick just leaving ... but anyone good replacing him?

For the team...I hope they manage to get back..
But this slow spiral has been happening for a long time now..
Might be too late.

But who knows? something big needs to change to get them back to their former selves.
Keeping Maldonardo for another year will give them more money.. but they need a decent driver.

I think personally they missed it when they split from BMW..

Edited by Streps on Friday 2nd December 19:53

They have a good driver in Barrichello. What you mean when they decided not to be bought by BMW who then pulled out of the sport it was a bad idea!?