2012 Provisional Regs
Discussion
The latest version of the regs for the Britcar MSA British Endurance Championship and the Britcar Production Cup Championship are now available online:
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3.9.12 In a team with more than one driver entered, no one driver may drive more than 60% of the advertised race distance
measured in time. Teams will be issued with Driver Change forms which must be completed at every driver change
and handed in to the Chief Britcar Pitlane Marshal after each stop. This Marshal will be named in the Final
I would like to know how other teams and competitors view this new regulation
measured in time. Teams will be issued with Driver Change forms which must be completed at every driver change
and handed in to the Chief Britcar Pitlane Marshal after each stop. This Marshal will be named in the Final
I would like to know how other teams and competitors view this new regulation
Racing Rod said:
3.9.12 In a team with more than one driver entered, no one driver may drive more than 60% of the advertised race distance
measured in time. Teams will be issued with Driver Change forms which must be completed at every driver change
and handed in to the Chief Britcar Pitlane Marshal after each stop. This Marshal will be named in the Final
I would like to know how other teams and competitors view this new regulation
Whilst I understand the reasons for this rule, my opinion is that 60% is a bit low - I don't think it offers the flexibility required, especially in shorter races (say 2 hrs). If for example, you are running a 2 stop strategy it might end up being very difficult to achieve 60% with 2 drivers.measured in time. Teams will be issued with Driver Change forms which must be completed at every driver change
and handed in to the Chief Britcar Pitlane Marshal after each stop. This Marshal will be named in the Final
I would like to know how other teams and competitors view this new regulation
The intention behind the rule is to stop professional drivers from doing all the work and trying to share out the workload between the gentleman and professional drivers to help level the playing field across the races.
From your comment macgtech, I assume that with fuel consumption you don't see an issue in the longer races but you would struggle in the shorter as it may mean you would need to make an extra uneccesary pitstop just to change drivers to satisfy the 60/40 split?
In that case is it worth considering altering this rule for short races only? If so what would be peoples suggestions?
From your comment macgtech, I assume that with fuel consumption you don't see an issue in the longer races but you would struggle in the shorter as it may mean you would need to make an extra uneccesary pitstop just to change drivers to satisfy the 60/40 split?
In that case is it worth considering altering this rule for short races only? If so what would be peoples suggestions?
Edited by Britcar David on Tuesday 13th December 10:42
Britcar David said:
The intention behind the rule is to stop professional drivers from doing all the work and trying to share out the workload between the gentleman and professional drivers to help level the playing field across the races.
From your comment macgtech, I assume that with fuel consumption you don't see an issue in the longer races but you would struggle in the shorter as it may mean you would need to make an extra uneccesary pitstop just to change drivers to satisfy the 60/40 split?
In that case is it worth considering altering this rule for short races only? If so what would be peoples suggestions?
Yes that is pretty much what I am getting at. I am surprised that it is an issue - I would have thought that the 'gentlemen' drivers would be keen to 'get their money's worth' if they are paying for a drive and would be rather put out if they were only limited to a short stint.From your comment macgtech, I assume that with fuel consumption you don't see an issue in the longer races but you would struggle in the shorter as it may mean you would need to make an extra uneccesary pitstop just to change drivers to satisfy the 60/40 split?
In that case is it worth considering altering this rule for short races only? If so what would be peoples suggestions?
Edited by Britcar David on Tuesday 13th December 10:42
I think changing the rules for a shorter race could potentially add complete confusion.
It would always be something we would make a note of in the drivers briefing for a particular race if it were implemented to avoid confusion.
Thankfully its not been too much of an issue so far however there have been occasions in the past where, particularily at the end of the season where championships are at stake, that these issues do arise and we'd like to keep the playing field level in each eventuality if possible.
Thankfully its not been too much of an issue so far however there have been occasions in the past where, particularily at the end of the season where championships are at stake, that these issues do arise and we'd like to keep the playing field level in each eventuality if possible.
What if you've got a car with 2 paying drivers, a 3 hour race and fuelwise you only need to stop once. Then what? Who gets the longer stint?
Also it might put off new/older drivers joining the championship while they are learning and getting their fitness up to speed.
If it was brought in for the 24 it could really tuck up one of the favoured high profile teams couldn't it?
Also it might put off new/older drivers joining the championship while they are learning and getting their fitness up to speed.
If it was brought in for the 24 it could really tuck up one of the favoured high profile teams couldn't it?
Britcar David said:
The intention behind the rule is to stop professional drivers from doing all the work and trying to share out the workload between the gentleman and professional drivers to help level the playing field across the races.
What if there are just pros in the car? The gents with pros have been handicapped against them.Racing Rod said:
3.9.12 In a team with more than one driver entered, no one driver may drive more than 60% of the advertised race distance
measured in time. Teams will be issued with Driver Change forms which must be completed at every driver change
and handed in to the Chief Britcar Pitlane Marshal after each stop. This Marshal will be named in the Final
I would like to know how other teams and competitors view this new regulation
I'm not really sure where this regulation change came from as I have no recollection of voting for it...but maybe I missed it?measured in time. Teams will be issued with Driver Change forms which must be completed at every driver change
and handed in to the Chief Britcar Pitlane Marshal after each stop. This Marshal will be named in the Final
I would like to know how other teams and competitors view this new regulation
While I understand some peoples reasons for asking for this to be introduced I am not sure it will be a good rule for the championship, here are my reasons,
1. If you have two paying drivers who's going to do the longer stint, surely someone's going to have to pay more, more awkward to sort out?
2. What if you have two pro drivers? doesn't help the more amateur drivers does it?
2. If it's possible to get through a 3 hour race with one pit stop on 120 litres (as for some teams at Brands) will they be able to get 50 litres in after 72 minutes? (I understand most races are 3hr in 2012)
3. If an owner/driver is paying in full for the race weekend and wants to do a longer stint he can't.
4. If a driver is unwilling or unable to drive for 72 minutes straight he'll potentially have to make an unscheduled pit stop to have a breather, making the team less competitive or continue racing which may be unsafe for him, in my experience a lot of gentleman/beginner drivers aren't willing or keen to do more than about 40 minutes especially when they're starting out and it's a really hot day. I realise fitness comes into this but so does safety doesn't it?
5. Surely, it's just another difficult thing for a pit lane marshal to police for every team during a race?
5. In my opinion, the driver change issue is a part of each teams strategy and is based on many things including number of fuel stops, financial arrangements between drivers, competitiveness and ability to make changes depending on actual circumstances during a race. I can't really see a valid reason why the technical & sporting regulations should have any influence over this subject.
This is just my opinion, not meant to be too negative or upset anyone. I am pleased that Britcar is trying hard to make the championship more professional and competitive by altering the regulations for 2012.
Racer1000 said:
I'm not really sure where this regulation change came from as I have no recollection of voting for it...but maybe I missed it?
While I understand some peoples reasons for asking for this to be introduced I am not sure it will be a good rule for the championship, here are my reasons,
1. If you have two paying drivers who's going to do the longer stint, surely someone's going to have to pay more, more awkward to sort out?
2. What if you have two pro drivers? doesn't help the more amateur drivers does it?
2. If it's possible to get through a 3 hour race with one pit stop on 120 litres (as for some teams at Brands) will they be able to get 50 litres in after 72 minutes? (I understand most races are 3hr in 2012)
3. If an owner/driver is paying in full for the race weekend and wants to do a longer stint he can't.
4. If a driver is unwilling or unable to drive for 72 minutes straight he'll potentially have to make an unscheduled pit stop to have a breather, making the team less competitive or continue racing which may be unsafe for him, in my experience a lot of gentleman/beginner drivers aren't willing or keen to do more than about 40 minutes especially when they're starting out and it's a really hot day. I realise fitness comes into this but so does safety doesn't it?
5. Surely, it's just another difficult thing for a pit lane marshal to police for every team during a race?
5. In my opinion, the driver change issue is a part of each teams strategy and is based on many things including number of fuel stops, financial arrangements between drivers, competitiveness and ability to make changes depending on actual circumstances during a race. I can't really see a valid reason why the technical & sporting regulations should have any influence over this subject.
This is just my opinion, not meant to be too negative or upset anyone. I am pleased that Britcar is trying hard to make the championship more professional and competitive by altering the regulations for 2012.
I'll do what I can to answer some of these queries as best I can. Please don't anyone take this as Britcar (or me) shouting anyone down who opposes a rule, we all (at Britcar Towers) genuinely want this up for discussion to get the best result for the teams as a whole:While I understand some peoples reasons for asking for this to be introduced I am not sure it will be a good rule for the championship, here are my reasons,
1. If you have two paying drivers who's going to do the longer stint, surely someone's going to have to pay more, more awkward to sort out?
2. What if you have two pro drivers? doesn't help the more amateur drivers does it?
2. If it's possible to get through a 3 hour race with one pit stop on 120 litres (as for some teams at Brands) will they be able to get 50 litres in after 72 minutes? (I understand most races are 3hr in 2012)
3. If an owner/driver is paying in full for the race weekend and wants to do a longer stint he can't.
4. If a driver is unwilling or unable to drive for 72 minutes straight he'll potentially have to make an unscheduled pit stop to have a breather, making the team less competitive or continue racing which may be unsafe for him, in my experience a lot of gentleman/beginner drivers aren't willing or keen to do more than about 40 minutes especially when they're starting out and it's a really hot day. I realise fitness comes into this but so does safety doesn't it?
5. Surely, it's just another difficult thing for a pit lane marshal to police for every team during a race?
5. In my opinion, the driver change issue is a part of each teams strategy and is based on many things including number of fuel stops, financial arrangements between drivers, competitiveness and ability to make changes depending on actual circumstances during a race. I can't really see a valid reason why the technical & sporting regulations should have any influence over this subject.
This is just my opinion, not meant to be too negative or upset anyone. I am pleased that Britcar is trying hard to make the championship more professional and competitive by altering the regulations for 2012.
Firstly, the idea was proposed by one of the team managers in the meeting at Snetterton and was generally perceived to be a good idea in the room.
Point 1: It isn't a fixed 60:40 split it is only that one driver can do a maximum of 60%
Point 2: Totally correct, however I would be loathe to see Britcar descend into the SRO type model of grading drivers as its just another thing to argue about. Thankfully this is not generally an issue in Britcar which tends to be campaigned by a Gentleman and a Professional. The occasions when we do have 2 professional standard drivers turn up they tend to be as an invitation entry so don't score points and hence effect the overall championship.
Point 2a: Maybe not (but as a general rule of thumb most GT cars seem to use around at least litre a minute therefore 72 mins (40% of the race) would leave 70 odd litres spare in the tank) but I suspect even a very frugal car would after 60% of the race(108min) have plenty of space for a 50litre fillup.
Point 3: Very true and if this is expected to be an issue in the championship then it is certainly something we would look to do something about.
Point 4: Without wishing to sound too blunt, as an endurance racing championship 'endurance' is part of the racing. If a driver, professional or amateur, is not able to cope then they should look at their own car, fitness and expectations and place themselves at the level where they will be able to compete safely.
Point 5: It is an additional task for the pitlane marshals however the same system has been in place for the Britcar 24hrs since its inception and has proven to be a reliable system.
Point 5a: A very good point. The intention of the rule is to minimise what could be perceived as unfair advantage by some teams letting their professional do the majority of the work. If the other points raised here prove to be of more importance to teams then we would look at revisiting the ratio or potentially removing it altogether.
As above please continue the discussion and keep forwarding ideas.
Britcar David said:
Point 4: Without wishing to sound too blunt, as an endurance racing championship 'endurance' is part of the racing. If a driver, professional or amateur, is not able to cope then they should look at their own car, fitness and expectations and place themselves at the level where they will be able to compete safely.
In an interesting financial time I would be very wary of doing anything that legislates against the more portly or mature driver. I can think of quite a few chaps who, fresh to the grid, were somewhat less manly than their current levels of endurance. It's usually something a gentleman driver works on but it can be a lengthy process.Britcar David said:
I'll do what I can to answer some of these queries as best I can. Please don't anyone take this as Britcar (or me) shouting anyone down who opposes a rule, we all (at Britcar Towers) genuinely want this up for discussion to get the best result for the teams as a whole:
Firstly, the idea was proposed by one of the team managers in the meeting at Snetterton and was generally perceived to be a good idea in the room.
Point 1: It isn't a fixed 60:40 split it is only that one driver can do a maximum of 60%
Point 2: Totally correct, however I would be loathe to see Britcar descend into the SRO type model of grading drivers as its just another thing to argue about. Thankfully this is not generally an issue in Britcar which tends to be campaigned by a Gentleman and a Professional. The occasions when we do have 2 professional standard drivers turn up they tend to be as an invitation entry so don't score points and hence effect the overall championship.
Point 2a: Maybe not (but as a general rule of thumb most GT cars seem to use around at least litre a minute therefore 72 mins (40% of the race) would leave 70 odd litres spare in the tank) but I suspect even a very frugal car would after 60% of the race(108min) have plenty of space for a 50litre fillup.
Point 3: Very true and if this is expected to be an issue in the championship then it is certainly something we would look to do something about.
Point 4: Without wishing to sound too blunt, as an endurance racing championship 'endurance' is part of the racing. If a driver, professional or amateur, is not able to cope then they should look at their own car, fitness and expectations and place themselves at the level where they will be able to compete safely.
Point 5: It is an additional task for the pitlane marshals however the same system has been in place for the Britcar 24hrs since its inception and has proven to be a reliable system.
Point 5a: A very good point. The intention of the rule is to minimise what could be perceived as unfair advantage by some teams letting their professional do the majority of the work. If the other points raised here prove to be of more importance to teams then we would look at revisiting the ratio or potentially removing it altogether.
As above please continue the discussion and keep forwarding ideas.
I think your reply to point 4 is a little harsh on newcomers, this is a championship where amateurs are encouraged to come and race, in fact isn't the point of this regulation to enable amateurs to have a better chance of scoring points by limiting the time a "pro" is in another teams car?Firstly, the idea was proposed by one of the team managers in the meeting at Snetterton and was generally perceived to be a good idea in the room.
Point 1: It isn't a fixed 60:40 split it is only that one driver can do a maximum of 60%
Point 2: Totally correct, however I would be loathe to see Britcar descend into the SRO type model of grading drivers as its just another thing to argue about. Thankfully this is not generally an issue in Britcar which tends to be campaigned by a Gentleman and a Professional. The occasions when we do have 2 professional standard drivers turn up they tend to be as an invitation entry so don't score points and hence effect the overall championship.
Point 2a: Maybe not (but as a general rule of thumb most GT cars seem to use around at least litre a minute therefore 72 mins (40% of the race) would leave 70 odd litres spare in the tank) but I suspect even a very frugal car would after 60% of the race(108min) have plenty of space for a 50litre fillup.
Point 3: Very true and if this is expected to be an issue in the championship then it is certainly something we would look to do something about.
Point 4: Without wishing to sound too blunt, as an endurance racing championship 'endurance' is part of the racing. If a driver, professional or amateur, is not able to cope then they should look at their own car, fitness and expectations and place themselves at the level where they will be able to compete safely.
Point 5: It is an additional task for the pitlane marshals however the same system has been in place for the Britcar 24hrs since its inception and has proven to be a reliable system.
Point 5a: A very good point. The intention of the rule is to minimise what could be perceived as unfair advantage by some teams letting their professional do the majority of the work. If the other points raised here prove to be of more importance to teams then we would look at revisiting the ratio or potentially removing it altogether.
As above please continue the discussion and keep forwarding ideas.
I agree that if someone isn't fit enough to race long distance then they need to get fitter but that is driver development. It's also driver development that makes an amateur driver fast enough to compete against all other drivers without changing regulations. It takes time & in my opinion shouldn't be decided by a regulation.
By allowing teams to decide driver stints the teams themselves are able to decide if a driver is driving at a safe level and can respond to any driver fatigue problems by making a driver change without having to worry about breaking a regulations. Many accidents in races are caused by driver fatigue in extreme temperatures and at night.
I guess what I'm saying is that it seems odd to have a regulation that could potentially interfere with a teams race, fuel & driver strategy. I thought pit stops & driver changes were all part of the team planning a race.
I have no experience driving a frugal car, so, as to whether 50litres can be put in after 72 minutes so can't really comment.
I would very much like to hear the opinions of other teams & drivers on this subject before the regulations are finalised.
We really don't see the need for the regulation - our opinion is that it would unnecessarily complicate races. I think it would be better to let teams decide their own strategy and if they want to run certain drivers for longer, so be it.
If paying customer/gentlemen drivers are happy to have less track time that is fine, however in the majority of these cases (unless it was not possible due to lack of personal fitness etc as previously discussed) I would imagine that the paying drivers would be keen to 'get their money's worth', and as such the regulation is not necessary. If I was a paying driver (or contributing to the costs of the race) I would be pretty upset in getting half the driving time of the 'professional' driver, and as such would look to a different team in the future for a customer drive.
Jonny
If paying customer/gentlemen drivers are happy to have less track time that is fine, however in the majority of these cases (unless it was not possible due to lack of personal fitness etc as previously discussed) I would imagine that the paying drivers would be keen to 'get their money's worth', and as such the regulation is not necessary. If I was a paying driver (or contributing to the costs of the race) I would be pretty upset in getting half the driving time of the 'professional' driver, and as such would look to a different team in the future for a customer drive.
Jonny
I'm with the majority view here that points toward scrapping this reg, I also know of another team not represented here that run a car with equestrian overtones , who would also be pleased to see this removed as they referred of this in a very recent conversation with my co-driver Jay Shepherd
, who would also be pleased to see this removed as they referred of this in a very recent conversation with my co-driver Jay ShepherdFirstly, sorry David, I know I owe you a reply about this regulation anyway so apologies for first replying about it here.
As an owner of a more frugal car (Motionsport Lotus) the 60% reg makes us a lot less competitive. Bear in mind that the car was built specifically for Britcar too with fuel economy VS power VS weigh very high on the agenda. Strategy is a massive part of endurance racing and without the freedom to have a large pit window, it takes away the real attraction of it all.
I vote scrape it. I don't really have a problem with people putting 'pros' in the car. We all have the option of doing that if we wish, therefore its pretty fair. Drive faster?!
Simon
As an owner of a more frugal car (Motionsport Lotus) the 60% reg makes us a lot less competitive. Bear in mind that the car was built specifically for Britcar too with fuel economy VS power VS weigh very high on the agenda. Strategy is a massive part of endurance racing and without the freedom to have a large pit window, it takes away the real attraction of it all.
I vote scrape it. I don't really have a problem with people putting 'pros' in the car. We all have the option of doing that if we wish, therefore its pretty fair. Drive faster?!
Simon
s111spp said:
Firstly, sorry David, I know I owe you a reply about this regulation anyway so apologies for first replying about it here.
As an owner of a more frugal car (Motionsport Lotus) the 60% reg makes us a lot less competitive. Bear in mind that the car was built specifically for Britcar too with fuel economy VS power VS weigh very high on the agenda. Strategy is a massive part of endurance racing and without the freedom to have a large pit window, it takes away the real attraction of it all.
I vote scrape it. I don't really have a problem with people putting 'pros' in the car. We all have the option of doing that if we wish, therefore its pretty fair. Drive faster?!
Simon
Couldn't agree more.As an owner of a more frugal car (Motionsport Lotus) the 60% reg makes us a lot less competitive. Bear in mind that the car was built specifically for Britcar too with fuel economy VS power VS weigh very high on the agenda. Strategy is a massive part of endurance racing and without the freedom to have a large pit window, it takes away the real attraction of it all.
I vote scrape it. I don't really have a problem with people putting 'pros' in the car. We all have the option of doing that if we wish, therefore its pretty fair. Drive faster?!
Simon
Britcar David said:
It seems all are in agreement.
The next version of the regs will update this.
An excellent example of a proper democratic process where the well-mannered, calm, clear thinking and respectful majority win the day over the more usual "loud" and ignorant self-serving minorities that plague our society, not that the latter was evident here, but it's nice to see the process as it should be, obviously very few residents from Camden on here The next version of the regs will update this.
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