"Formula 1 may need budget cap after all" Bernie Ecclestone
Discussion
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97969
I am surprised that there is not a thread running on this already. The main achievement of Moseley’s time at the FIA was improvement of safety in Motor Racing – in my opinion, his biggest failure was not being able to introduce $50million F1.
The money that gets wasted in taking two cars to 20 events a year is just incredible and tends to ruin, rather than improve “the show” for fans. The biggest problem is that the underside aerodynamics, not seen by fans or other competitors, is the biggest waste of all; what they seek to achieve is the same result that Chapman achieved more than 30 years ago with skirts, perhaps with a budget of just £4million.
I appreciate that BE may have a vested interest in not paying FOTA more of the prize money, but apart from that, what do other fans think?
I am surprised that there is not a thread running on this already. The main achievement of Moseley’s time at the FIA was improvement of safety in Motor Racing – in my opinion, his biggest failure was not being able to introduce $50million F1.
The money that gets wasted in taking two cars to 20 events a year is just incredible and tends to ruin, rather than improve “the show” for fans. The biggest problem is that the underside aerodynamics, not seen by fans or other competitors, is the biggest waste of all; what they seek to achieve is the same result that Chapman achieved more than 30 years ago with skirts, perhaps with a budget of just £4million.
I appreciate that BE may have a vested interest in not paying FOTA more of the prize money, but apart from that, what do other fans think?
As soon as you do that, you may as well go for a spec chassis IMO. It's the ridiculous over-legislation that's led the teams to get most of their "edge" from spending all their money on tiny and incremental changes in aero.
Get development back on to engines, where F1 technology could have real-world applications. Make engines completely free, allow the teams to run petrol, diesel, range extended hybrids, full electric, whatever they like, but give everybody a cap on fuel (measured in Joules to make it fair) allowed so that the most efficient team wins the race. The cap can then be lowered year on year, forcing the teams to get more speed per joule. That equates more or less directly to MPG or CO2/Km.
With that sort of push the teams will throw all of their development into camless engine technology, better batteries, compound charging, better electric motors, and all of that has applications in real cars.
Get development back on to engines, where F1 technology could have real-world applications. Make engines completely free, allow the teams to run petrol, diesel, range extended hybrids, full electric, whatever they like, but give everybody a cap on fuel (measured in Joules to make it fair) allowed so that the most efficient team wins the race. The cap can then be lowered year on year, forcing the teams to get more speed per joule. That equates more or less directly to MPG or CO2/Km.
With that sort of push the teams will throw all of their development into camless engine technology, better batteries, compound charging, better electric motors, and all of that has applications in real cars.
If a budget cap is implemented then I think the restrictions should be relaxed. The team with the best ideas and engineering skills will produce the best car for the given budget.
That, mixed with a fuel allowance as said above so that engines can be different, to play to the strengths of the chassis designed under the cap I think would make a great championship.
That, mixed with a fuel allowance as said above so that engines can be different, to play to the strengths of the chassis designed under the cap I think would make a great championship.
thing is engine develpoment is expensive so you're better off spending the cash on aero to make the car faster as you get more 'bang for your buck'
trouble is the teams will spend all of their budget all of the time so trying to cap a team to $50 mil when they;re currently earning $300 mil is always going ot be hard
plus if you cap the whole budget then this still gives the established teams a big advantage as they don't have to build an infrastructure, test facilities that a start-up team has to
trouble is the teams will spend all of their budget all of the time so trying to cap a team to $50 mil when they;re currently earning $300 mil is always going ot be hard
plus if you cap the whole budget then this still gives the established teams a big advantage as they don't have to build an infrastructure, test facilities that a start-up team has to
A free market economy will always establish a workable budget that is right for all.
A budget cap could never work, partly because it's near impossible to enforce and partly because it ignores the fact that many of the bigger teams have already invested massive amounts in the resources to develop their cars. Imagine trying to convince McLaren to ditch the MTC and move into a B1 unit and operate from there!
A budget cap could never work, partly because it's near impossible to enforce and partly because it ignores the fact that many of the bigger teams have already invested massive amounts in the resources to develop their cars. Imagine trying to convince McLaren to ditch the MTC and move into a B1 unit and operate from there!
But it is easy to forget the bigger picture in the real world.
On Sunday, only 4 teams will start the season with a realistic chance of winning either the WDC, or WCC. Meanwhile, the once-mighty Williams are struggling to make ends meet; HRT and Virgin can’t bring a semi-completive car to the grid, and every other type of motorsport is seriously strapped for cash. What happens in F1 affects all other forms of motorsports
Max’s scheme never included assets, drivers, team principals and key personnel – e.g. there is only one Adrian Newey.
I want to see close competitive racing, with the very best drivers and a full grid, I am not bothered if all the teams have a level playing field, just like most other sports (not big-businesses).
On Sunday, only 4 teams will start the season with a realistic chance of winning either the WDC, or WCC. Meanwhile, the once-mighty Williams are struggling to make ends meet; HRT and Virgin can’t bring a semi-completive car to the grid, and every other type of motorsport is seriously strapped for cash. What happens in F1 affects all other forms of motorsports
Max’s scheme never included assets, drivers, team principals and key personnel – e.g. there is only one Adrian Newey.
I want to see close competitive racing, with the very best drivers and a full grid, I am not bothered if all the teams have a level playing field, just like most other sports (not big-businesses).
A budget cap is all but unworkable. The rich teams will always have an advantage, have a parallel desigh with transferable technology, have ways of testing ideas before putting them in the F1 arena.
It is only possible to police with access to all areas and Ferrari for one has been less than accommodating in that respect.
There are other ways of limiting costs but most will still allow the big teams to spend more.
Mosley's intent was to have just the one chassis (probably Ferrari built, after all tenders had been reviewed) and the one aerodynamic package. Part of that policy gave us a one make F2 as well as lower formulae, making them a sort of super Formula Ford. And look how that has turned out.
I don't know what the solution is, apart from letting it run as it is at the moment. There are three, possibly four, teams with a possibility of being consistently on the podium and that is as good as it has ever been over a period. The dreadful times of the dominance of one team with one driver have gone so I'm not sure there is much of a problem to solve at the moment.
Ecclestone is saying stuff, flying a kite, possibly in relation to the pending sale of the commercial rights. They might well be more valuable if the say of the big teams was limited by a new concord agreement. Everything he says probably has something to do with the fact that it is 2012, the last season of F1 as we know it.
Whatever the decision is about budgets, when you look how teams have cheated over the seasons - with the collusion of those whose job it was to enforce the regs one feels - if there is a cap then it will make little or no difference.
His failures are many, and lack of interference in F1 would not be top of my list.
Midas in reverse.
It is only possible to police with access to all areas and Ferrari for one has been less than accommodating in that respect.
There are other ways of limiting costs but most will still allow the big teams to spend more.
Mosley's intent was to have just the one chassis (probably Ferrari built, after all tenders had been reviewed) and the one aerodynamic package. Part of that policy gave us a one make F2 as well as lower formulae, making them a sort of super Formula Ford. And look how that has turned out.
I don't know what the solution is, apart from letting it run as it is at the moment. There are three, possibly four, teams with a possibility of being consistently on the podium and that is as good as it has ever been over a period. The dreadful times of the dominance of one team with one driver have gone so I'm not sure there is much of a problem to solve at the moment.
Ecclestone is saying stuff, flying a kite, possibly in relation to the pending sale of the commercial rights. They might well be more valuable if the say of the big teams was limited by a new concord agreement. Everything he says probably has something to do with the fact that it is 2012, the last season of F1 as we know it.
Whatever the decision is about budgets, when you look how teams have cheated over the seasons - with the collusion of those whose job it was to enforce the regs one feels - if there is a cap then it will make little or no difference.
rdjohn said:
The main achievement of Moseley’s time at the FIA was improvement of safety in Motor Racing – in my opinion, his biggest failure was not being able to introduce $50million F1.
Not sure I agree with either statement. The procedures that were put in place for safety were 'on his desk' before the deaths of Ratzenburger and, producing more pressure, Senna. Many feel they could have been avoided had they been implimented. So are you suggesting his main achievement was bolting the stable door? His failures are many, and lack of interference in F1 would not be top of my list.
Midas in reverse.
Eric Mc said:
I'm surprised Bernie isn't whisked away in the breeze when you consider the amount of kites he has flying at any one time.
I think they are all the same: the concord agreement. So perhaps just the one. This is the big one for him. It is just a case of him against the teams. The FIA has been neutered by Mosley so it is just a simple battle.A year or so ago I would have said that Ecclestone had it cracked but he's had a rough time. Gribkowsky cant have helped him. The arrangements with Sky might have been a bad idea as Murdoch has one or two things on his mind at the moment.
Much as I resent dreadfully the move towards Sky, these developments will probably set the scene for the way F1 develops over the next 10 to 20 years. I think the Sky deal is a great big leap into the dark for both Bernie and Rupe. Rupe I think is happy to lose his shirt on getting involved in broadcasting F1 as long as his companies end up owning the whole venture - not just the UK broadcasting rights.
He has always been a player of the long game and the ultimate aim will be to own the whole thing - even if losses are incurred in the early years.
He has always been a player of the long game and the ultimate aim will be to own the whole thing - even if losses are incurred in the early years.
Well, all you daytime thinkers have really let me down. Especially Derek
The key issue really is that Bernie has driven F1 down a 30 year long cul-de-sac, that is now nearing a very obvious end.
Sunday will be the very first time, since 1976, that any ordinary member of the UK public will not be able to turn on the telly and watch the race live. So maybe a future Lewis will not watch it etc. etc. TV has now gone the same route as watching a race live at a circuit – just too expensive for the casual fan. Does anyone actually remember the thrill of doing that the first time? In 1976, F1 was a minority sport on BBC2, but at least all the races were shown as well as F3 and RAC rally etc..
A sensible and enforced RRA would eventually mean that the great circuits and European TVs execs. would not need to cough-up such ridiculous sums for the right of hosting these events. The first step needs to be getting the “monkey-off-the-back” of F1 in the form of BE and CVC.
A strong and sensible FOTA is urgently needed to do that. If this means the end of Ferrari in F1, then so be it. They may then be able to return to sports car racing and take the revitalised Lancia to WRC and also help return those sports into great spectator sports once again.
The key issue really is that Bernie has driven F1 down a 30 year long cul-de-sac, that is now nearing a very obvious end.
Sunday will be the very first time, since 1976, that any ordinary member of the UK public will not be able to turn on the telly and watch the race live. So maybe a future Lewis will not watch it etc. etc. TV has now gone the same route as watching a race live at a circuit – just too expensive for the casual fan. Does anyone actually remember the thrill of doing that the first time? In 1976, F1 was a minority sport on BBC2, but at least all the races were shown as well as F3 and RAC rally etc..
A sensible and enforced RRA would eventually mean that the great circuits and European TVs execs. would not need to cough-up such ridiculous sums for the right of hosting these events. The first step needs to be getting the “monkey-off-the-back” of F1 in the form of BE and CVC.
A strong and sensible FOTA is urgently needed to do that. If this means the end of Ferrari in F1, then so be it. They may then be able to return to sports car racing and take the revitalised Lancia to WRC and also help return those sports into great spectator sports once again.
rdjohn said:
Well, all you daytime thinkers have really let me down. Especially Derek
The key issue really is that Bernie has driven F1 down a 30 year long cul-de-sac, that is now nearing a very obvious end.
Sunday will be the very first time, since 1976, that any ordinary member of the UK public will not be able to turn on the telly and watch the race live. So maybe a future Lewis will not watch it etc. etc. TV has now gone the same route as watching a race live at a circuit – just too expensive for the casual fan. Does anyone actually remember the thrill of doing that the first time? In 1976, F1 was a minority sport on BBC2, but at least all the races were shown as well as F3 and RAC rally etc..
A sensible and enforced RRA would eventually mean that the great circuits and European TVs execs. would not need to cough-up such ridiculous sums for the right of hosting these events. The first step needs to be getting the “monkey-off-the-back” of F1 in the form of BE and CVC.
A strong and sensible FOTA is urgently needed to do that. If this means the end of Ferrari in F1, then so be it. They may then be able to return to sports car racing and take the revitalised Lancia to WRC and also help return those sports into great spectator sports once again.
I agree with your sentiments but the full F1 season was definitely not shown live in 1976. In fact, as far as I am aware, the first year ALL the races were available to see live was 1992.The key issue really is that Bernie has driven F1 down a 30 year long cul-de-sac, that is now nearing a very obvious end.
Sunday will be the very first time, since 1976, that any ordinary member of the UK public will not be able to turn on the telly and watch the race live. So maybe a future Lewis will not watch it etc. etc. TV has now gone the same route as watching a race live at a circuit – just too expensive for the casual fan. Does anyone actually remember the thrill of doing that the first time? In 1976, F1 was a minority sport on BBC2, but at least all the races were shown as well as F3 and RAC rally etc..
A sensible and enforced RRA would eventually mean that the great circuits and European TVs execs. would not need to cough-up such ridiculous sums for the right of hosting these events. The first step needs to be getting the “monkey-off-the-back” of F1 in the form of BE and CVC.
A strong and sensible FOTA is urgently needed to do that. If this means the end of Ferrari in F1, then so be it. They may then be able to return to sports car racing and take the revitalised Lancia to WRC and also help return those sports into great spectator sports once again.
The first year all the races were shown (as a combination of some live and the rest highlights) was 1978
rdjohn said:
Well, all you daytime thinkers have really let me down. Especially Derek
The key issue really is that Bernie has driven F1 down a 30 year long cul-de-sac, that is now nearing a very obvious end.
Sunday will be the very first time, since 1976, that any ordinary member of the UK public will not be able to turn on the telly and watch the race live. So maybe a future Lewis will not watch it etc. etc. TV has now gone the same route as watching a race live at a circuit – just too expensive for the casual fan. Does anyone actually remember the thrill of doing that the first time? In 1976, F1 was a minority sport on BBC2, but at least all the races were shown as well as F3 and RAC rally etc..
A sensible and enforced RRA would eventually mean that the great circuits and European TVs execs. would not need to cough-up such ridiculous sums for the right of hosting these events. The first step needs to be getting the “monkey-off-the-back” of F1 in the form of BE and CVC.
A strong and sensible FOTA is urgently needed to do that. If this means the end of Ferrari in F1, then so be it. They may then be able to return to sports car racing and take the revitalised Lancia to WRC and also help return those sports into great spectator sports once again.
A bit harsh I feel as I think most of us would agree that Bernie has taken the sport down the dead end.The key issue really is that Bernie has driven F1 down a 30 year long cul-de-sac, that is now nearing a very obvious end.
Sunday will be the very first time, since 1976, that any ordinary member of the UK public will not be able to turn on the telly and watch the race live. So maybe a future Lewis will not watch it etc. etc. TV has now gone the same route as watching a race live at a circuit – just too expensive for the casual fan. Does anyone actually remember the thrill of doing that the first time? In 1976, F1 was a minority sport on BBC2, but at least all the races were shown as well as F3 and RAC rally etc..
A sensible and enforced RRA would eventually mean that the great circuits and European TVs execs. would not need to cough-up such ridiculous sums for the right of hosting these events. The first step needs to be getting the “monkey-off-the-back” of F1 in the form of BE and CVC.
A strong and sensible FOTA is urgently needed to do that. If this means the end of Ferrari in F1, then so be it. They may then be able to return to sports car racing and take the revitalised Lancia to WRC and also help return those sports into great spectator sports once again.
But it is not the teams who have made the sport so expensive for the circuit managers, the TV companies and the fans. It is Bernie. The teams fund their own expenditure.
Bernie and CVC will go but the question is who will take over. Sky would appear to be the favourite at the moment but I'm not 100% convinced. Whilst they have the whip hand in this country I'm not sure they have the same supportive governments in other countries. Further, the scandal and the pressure in the USA at least to have Rupe decalred not a fit a proper might hinder their chances.
I think this will run for some time yet.
I agreed some time ago with the poster who suggested that when the sport goes 100% Sky then the viewing figures will plummet. My revised conclusion is that they will start to drop off this season. The fact that people can't see the whole of the series is a significant change. Further, the last time Sky had F1 I subscribed and friends came around my place and we had two TVs - this makes me sound sad I know - with ITV on one and Sky on the other. After less than one season we were all watching ITV.
Sport is hit when it goes on Sky. Rugby has suffered a great deal by the premiership deal. My old club used to have surges of interest when the 6N or RWC were on TV but at other times no one came forward. No one saw it.
F1 is more at risk at the moment that it ever was during the many threatened breakaway sagas. Teh concord agreement, the scrabble for contracts, Ecclestone having Gribkowski hanging over him, and his increasingly bizarre press releases are all worrying. We've had talk of four cylinder 1600cc engines, low power, KERS and all such rubbish.
No sport has a right to exist. It needs to fight for its place. China could dump F1 and not notice. The sandy states don't need it. Even one as big as F1. There were empty seats in the Millenium Stadium to see Wales go a step nearer the Grand Slam. If youngsters had been watching rugby each weekend, either on the the TV or at their clubs then the sport would still be healthy.
I reckon that the sport needs to be managed very carefully in the months and probably years ahead. At the helm we have teams who can't agree even on their names, we have Todt without any power and Ecclestone with his other gtroubles.
I'm worried.
I said on another thread that when I discovered that the BBC would not be showing all 20 (19?) races live I had a feeling of relief. I've always viewed myself as a nerd. I've only ever missed a live race on TV before once - apart from the times I went to the circuit of course - since 1966. And I used to work shifts, weekends and could be called in at any time. And now I'm thinking to myself that I'll get an extra ten weekends a year.
Odd, to say the least.
bernie 'bought' the rights for £300m. They were worth about £1.5 billion the following Thursday more or less. It is not the teams who have sold the sport and fans short. I accept they are hardly blameless but at least they put something into the sport.
F1 has got so lost up its own bureaucratic, capitalist-hugging backside, that I don't think it knows which way to turn. It's turned into one giant financial spider's web (and not likely to decrease any time soon) To untangle that lot down to an economic budget but it still be somewhere near F1, is near impossible.
I thought Williams actually had quite a profitable year last year, even if it was a disaster on track.
I suspect Bernie is just stirring it, after all it was budget caps that lead to the break up of FOTA and of Red Bull walking away from it. Mainly because they were accused of overspending I believe.
Bernie would appear to think that by bringing up this subject he can destablise the teams.
I suspect Bernie is just stirring it, after all it was budget caps that lead to the break up of FOTA and of Red Bull walking away from it. Mainly because they were accused of overspending I believe.
Bernie would appear to think that by bringing up this subject he can destablise the teams.
Chrisgr31 said:
I thought Williams actually had quite a profitable year last year, even if it was a disaster on track.
I suspect Bernie is just stirring it, after all it was budget caps that lead to the break up of FOTA and of Red Bull walking away from it. Mainly because they were accused of overspending I believe.
Bernie would appear to think that by bringing up this subject he can destablise the teams.
Bernie's statements remind me of recent Van Halen press releases. All very 'smoke n mirrors' and all that but ultimately it all gets a bit boring and you have to ask the question...."Any chance you could just make the racing better?..Thank's awfully, old chap!"I suspect Bernie is just stirring it, after all it was budget caps that lead to the break up of FOTA and of Red Bull walking away from it. Mainly because they were accused of overspending I believe.
Bernie would appear to think that by bringing up this subject he can destablise the teams.
Edit - Or if you're feeling a bit more tetchy..."Bernie....Could you please just Sod Off!... Thanks a bunch, old bean!"
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