How come every time Red Bull get caught cheating

[Adrian W]

The FIA just ask them not to do it again,

I was just reading about the torque limiter (traction control) when I came across another recent one concerning ride hight adjustment, the rules specifically say must need tools but the RB one could be done by hand, I.e between qualifying and the race, then there was the floor duct, when is this cheating and not just pushing the rules.

Seems to me it's about time they got a penalty

[playalistic]

I think the simple answer is when the FIA slap them with a DQ rather than a rule clarification after the fact.

You can look at this two ways I think. They're either the absolute masters at bending/interpreting the rules as stated, or there is some favouritism or leniency from the FIA, perhaps due to the money that Red Bull pump into motorsport in general. My view is the former. F1 has always been about how to exploit loopholes in the rules and I'm sure lots of what could be defined as cheating occurs but just goes unnoticed.

[davepoth]

playalistic said:

F1 has always been about how to exploit loopholes in the rules and I'm sure lots of what could be defined as cheating occurs but just goes unnoticed.

This. Adrian Newey is a master of bending the rules; the floor thing was a bit silly since everyone else on the grid had bigger holes in their floor (just that they were slots rather than holes), the off throttle blowing idea wasn't actually illegal at all (but I think they've changed the rules now) and the ride height allegation is that it could be adjusted too easily in parc ferme, not that it actually was.

McLaren did similar with the F-Duct, Mercedes have done similar with their double DRS, everybody is looking for that bit of ambiguity in the rules that will give them an advantage, even if it is only for one weekend.

[stephen300o]

It's because Redbull have not cheated. FIA changed the rules to exclude Redbull's interpretations, you could say FIA are stifling innovation.

[RichB]

Wouldn't it be great if you could go back to the days of John Cooper and Colin Chapman with inovation and creativity. Instead of endless rules to make the cars slower.

[AlexS]

davepoth said:

This. Adrian Newey is a master of bending the rules; the floor thing was a bit silly since everyone else on the grid had bigger holes in their floor (just that they were slots rather than holes), the off throttle blowing idea wasn't actually illegal at all (but I think they've changed the rules now) and the ride height allegation is that it could be adjusted too easily in parc ferme, not that it actually was.

McLaren did similar with the F-Duct, Mercedes have done similar with their double DRS, everybody is looking for that bit of ambiguity in the rules that will give them an advantage, even if it is only for one weekend.

They weren't off throttle blowing, that has been clamped down on and interestingly RBR had found an idle speed loop hole which was stopped during pre-season testing, but reduced torque output vs throttle opening. The aim of the rules is that the torque output is solely dependent on the the drivers demand, not the ECU deciding that at certain points in the rev range the torque should be reduced.

The issue with the ride height adjustment is that the rules state that you cannot have something that can be adjusted by hand (this makes policing parc ferme conditions easier). The RBR was in breach of this, regardless of whether that nice Mr Horner said that they never used it.

[Adrian W]

AlexS said:

The issue with the ride height adjustment is that the rules state that you cannot have something that can be adjusted by hand (this makes policing parc ferme conditions easier). The RBR was in breach of this, regardless of whether that nice Mr Horner said that they never used it.

This got my interest as their wet to dry performance seems, qualy to race etc seems so good.

[m444ttb]

RichB said:

Wouldn't it be great if you could go back to the days of John Cooper and Colin Chapman with inovation and creativity. Instead of endless rules to make the cars slower.

Perhaps if you could limit their budgets reliably.

[sjn2004]

I thought you were going to say why do RB then claim said "illegal part" was actually of no use and gave no performance enhancement. So why waste time doing all these things then?

[Scuffers]

RichB said:

Wouldn't it be great if you could go back to the days of John Cooper and Colin Chapman with inovation and creativity. Instead of endless rules to make the cars slower.

this ^^^^^^

[Nick M]

Scuffers said:

RichB said:

Wouldn't it be great if you could go back to the days of John Cooper and Colin Chapman with inovation and creativity. Instead of endless rules to make the cars slower.

this ^^^^^^

In a 'money no object' arena then I'd tend to agree, but that's not feasible in the current global economic conditions.

There is also an argument for saying that tightly controlled and consistent (from one season to another) regs result in closer racing because it's about optimisation rather than someone coming up with a game-changing piece of technology which gives them a massive advantage, to the detriment of the racing and the cost to all the other teams of catching up / overtaking them.

Finally, there's also the safety element, because that is no small part of the reason why they've tried to limit the corner speeds of cars over the years.

However, all of those 'sensible' reasons out of the way, I do agree that F1 is not the melting pot of technical innovation which it was in the years where there were wholesale changes and improvements in technology being made, and it would be nice to see a bit of energy being channeled into something new and exciting rather than them spending most of their time chasing fractions of a % for an increase in downforce or something to make the tyres last longer.

[Adrian W]

I agree that the performance of the cars is being held back, there is a valid argument that F1 is not the pinnacle of motor sport, the teams seem to have developed an ability to spend huge amounts on anything but the car, in the days of Chapman etc it wasn’t all about the Bernie show and the corporate games, I’ve never bought a product because of a sticker on an F1 car.

However rules are rules, and cheating is cheating, to me it seems black and white, the suspension one couldn’t be more clean cut, there is an absolute rule/reg against it.

[zac510]

Yeah Cooper and Chapman never had the book thrown at them (!)

[Fire99]

There are many things about F1 that I hate but teams should always push the boundaries to the limit. That is integral with F1, that there is a technical 'war' going on to make the utter most out of the cars, whilst JUST keeping within the rules.

I'm not a fan of Redbull either but fair play to Newey. He's bloody good at what he does.

[davepoth]

AlexS said:

They weren't off throttle blowing, that has been clamped down on and interestingly RBR had found an idle speed loop hole which was stopped during pre-season testing, but reduced torque output vs throttle opening. The aim of the rules is that the torque output is solely dependent on the the drivers demand, not the ECU deciding that at certain points in the rev range the torque should be reduced.

They were off throttle blowing. The way they reduced the torque lower down the rev range was by altering the ignition map to retard the spark. The problem with that is that they are then using the same amount of fuel to produce less power; if all they wanted to do was reduce the torque they could have reduced the amount of fuel/air mixture entering the cylinder for a specific throttle opening, which would have reduced the torque for no fuel wastage.

The only possible reason for using the ignition map that way is to get the mixture in the cylinders to ignite after the exhaust valves have opened, hence exhaust blowing.

I believe Red Bull have got around the technical ban on blowing up to now by altering the ignition map so that the ignition was retarded to the same level under all circumstances rather than what got banned, which was altering the ignition map so that it was only retarded under trailing throttle conditions. That means that it won't work quite as well under acceleration, but only at specific throttle openings and specific rev ranges, which presumably are reasonably easy to drive around.

[rev-erend]

Perhaps it should be 3 red cards and you are out ?

[ArnageWRC]

Adrian W said:

I agree that the performance of the cars is being held back, there is a valid argument that F1 is not the pinnacle of motor sport, the teams seem to have developed an ability to spend huge amounts on anything but the car, in the days of Chapman etc it wasn’t all about the Bernie show and the corporate games, I’ve never bought a product because of a sticker on an F1 car.

However rules are rules, and cheating is cheating, to me it seems black and white, the suspension one couldn’t be more clean cut, there is an absolute rule/reg against it.

I'm not sure it's even an argument, it isn't the Pinnacle of Motorsport. All using 2.4 v8 engines.....all on Pirelli tyres,

My issue is the apparent changing of the rules midway through a season; remember the Renault mass damper device in 2006, or the McLaren brake steer in 1998, etc

[StevieBee]

RichB said:

Wouldn't it be great if you could go back to the days of John Cooper and Colin Chapman with inovation and creativity. Instead of endless rules to make the cars slower.

History tints the spectacles a nice rose tint, doesn't it?

I think it's Colin Chapman credited with the saying that "rules are there for the stupid to obey and the clever to circumvent". Some his circumventions may be classed as innovation but others are most certainly not, like fitting his cars with a switch that dumped water and oil on the track once the driver had posted the fastest time in qualifying so preventing others from going faster, playing around with illegal fuel mixes, suspension designed to hoodwink officials, lead shot in the fuel tanks......

They were all at it.

F1 today is probably the most robustly policed and free of illegality than it has ever been.

[mollytherocker]

StevieBee said:

History tints the spectacles a nice rose tint, doesn't it?

I think it's Colin Chapman credited with the saying that "rules are there for the stupid to obey and the clever to circumvent". Some his circumventions may be classed as innovation but others are most certainly not, like fitting his cars with a switch that dumped water and oil on the track once the driver had posted the fastest time in qualifying so preventing others from going faster, playing around with illegal fuel mixes, suspension designed to hoodwink officials, lead shot in the fuel tanks......

They were all at it.

F1 today is probably the most robustly policed and free of illegality than it has ever been.

Sense at last.

MTR

[AlpineWhite]

ArnageWRC said:

I'm not sure it's even an argument, it isn't the Pinnacle of Motorsport. All using 2.4 v8 engines.....all on Pirelli tyres,

Perhaps a side discussion, but a good point. However, if not F1, then what is the pinnacle of motorsport?