Should the ARDS test be changed?
Discussion
Having done one myself I know how easy they are to pass, which worries me a bit.
A friend of mine has decided to give up with the track days and go racing. I would not want this guy sharing a race track with me. Having been out with him on track days and been gobsmacked that someone who has spent years doing so many track days could be so awful, very erratic miles off a good line not very aware of what is around and not great car control I do worry how safe he would be in a pack of cars.
Also seen quite a few races lately where people seemed to be in it just because they can be and are not competing with anyone which makes for a crappy show for the spectators who pay a lot of money to see some good racing. Also there was a thread on here not long ago where people were moaning about slow back markers ruining it for other drivers.
Would it be better if the test involved a few sections? You can keep the written part but maybe add in a control/ skid pan element and maybe a follow the leader element where you have to stay within a certain time/ distance of an instructor.
People who can't keep up can then keep themselves doing trackdays which would give them better value for money and is essentially what they are doing anyway .
Obviously this may result in smaller grids but I would happily watch a 2 car race if they were really going at each other.
A friend of mine has decided to give up with the track days and go racing. I would not want this guy sharing a race track with me. Having been out with him on track days and been gobsmacked that someone who has spent years doing so many track days could be so awful, very erratic miles off a good line not very aware of what is around and not great car control I do worry how safe he would be in a pack of cars.
Also seen quite a few races lately where people seemed to be in it just because they can be and are not competing with anyone which makes for a crappy show for the spectators who pay a lot of money to see some good racing. Also there was a thread on here not long ago where people were moaning about slow back markers ruining it for other drivers.
Would it be better if the test involved a few sections? You can keep the written part but maybe add in a control/ skid pan element and maybe a follow the leader element where you have to stay within a certain time/ distance of an instructor.
People who can't keep up can then keep themselves doing trackdays which would give them better value for money and is essentially what they are doing anyway .
Obviously this may result in smaller grids but I would happily watch a 2 car race if they were really going at each other.
ARDS isnt really a test of anything, a monkey could pass it and anyone that does fail it doesnt deserve to be out on track!
ive said before it is simply a tax by the MSA to increase their coffers! it has absolutely no bearing on whether an individual is capable of driving safely on track,just being able to answer the worlds easiest multiple choice questions,remember flags and take instruction whilst out on track doing probably 50% of the speed you would do in a race situation! i was told by the instructor when i did mine that the idea is that the instructor is supposed to assess you and decide whether he/she would be happy to be on track at the same time as you,but how,driving at the speed you do on an ARDS,give any indication as to what your ability is in a race situation?
my argument has always been why do we need an ARDS test at all when as previously stated you can do the above then go and get in a 700bhp evo or equivelant and then go and cause havoc!
ive said before it is simply a tax by the MSA to increase their coffers! it has absolutely no bearing on whether an individual is capable of driving safely on track,just being able to answer the worlds easiest multiple choice questions,remember flags and take instruction whilst out on track doing probably 50% of the speed you would do in a race situation! i was told by the instructor when i did mine that the idea is that the instructor is supposed to assess you and decide whether he/she would be happy to be on track at the same time as you,but how,driving at the speed you do on an ARDS,give any indication as to what your ability is in a race situation?
my argument has always been why do we need an ARDS test at all when as previously stated you can do the above then go and get in a 700bhp evo or equivelant and then go and cause havoc!
RB Will said:
Also seen quite a few races lately where people seemed to be in it just because they can be and are not competing with anyone which makes for a crappy show for the spectators who pay a lot of money to see some good racing. Also there was a thread on here not long ago where people were moaning about slow back markers ruining it for other drivers.
Like f1 then?RB Will said:
H
A friend of mine has decided to give up with the track days and go racing. I would not want this guy sharing a race track with me. Having been out with him on track days and been gobsmacked that someone who has spent years doing so many track days could be so awful, very erratic miles off a good line not very aware of what is around and not great car control I do worry how safe he would be in a pack of cars.
Well, he'll either crash ( lose car ) or be banned in actual racing so don't worry to much.A friend of mine has decided to give up with the track days and go racing. I would not want this guy sharing a race track with me. Having been out with him on track days and been gobsmacked that someone who has spent years doing so many track days could be so awful, very erratic miles off a good line not very aware of what is around and not great car control I do worry how safe he would be in a pack of cars.
MrOrange said:
superkartracer said:
Well, he'll either crash ( lose car ) or be banned in actual racing so don't worry to much.
This. Most series are well enough run to weed-out/ban/exclude the idiots.As for the spectators, that is irrelevant in this case IMO. When competitors are paying maybe £400 just for an entry for an hour's racing, compared with maybe £12 for a spectator, I would say the other competitors are the ones who should be considered. Not to mention all the other costs.
The ARDS test should be at least meaningful.
I am also struggling to remember any novice ever being banned for being incompetent.
REALIST123 said:
Maybe, but sometimes it's too late when they do "weed them out". Crashing on their own is one thing but why expose others to risk?
I am also struggling to remember any novice ever being banned for being incompetent.
I agree. For example the was a chap who used to enter one series at my local track who had a large budget so just had the best car but struggles a bit to control it and on separate occasions nigh on wrote off 2 other racers cars. Think he actually paid for the others repairs in the end but I'm sure not everyone is so generous.I am also struggling to remember any novice ever being banned for being incompetent.
Unfortunately I don't race anything as I don't have the budget.
superkartracer said:
Well, he'll either crash ( lose car ) or be banned in actual racing so don't worry to much.
I've never known anyone to be banned in club racing - despite how dangerous they are.Recently been coaching someone in the Caterham Academy - having spent sometime on the track with some of the academy drivers I can say I've never had so many near misses on a track. No comprehension of spacial awareness, closing speeds etc. Scary stuff - still they seem to mostly avoid hitting each other, more luck than skill i think
woof said:
I've never known anyone to be banned in club racing - despite how dangerous they are.
Recently been coaching someone in the Caterham Academy - having spent sometime on the track with some of the academy drivers I can say I've never had so many near misses on a track. No comprehension of spacial awareness, closing speeds etc. Scary stuff - still they seem to mostly avoid hitting each other, more luck than skill i think
Banned from series, entry-not-accepted, points/red-cards, race-bans, not-asked-back etc. I've seen it happen.Recently been coaching someone in the Caterham Academy - having spent sometime on the track with some of the academy drivers I can say I've never had so many near misses on a track. No comprehension of spacial awareness, closing speeds etc. Scary stuff - still they seem to mostly avoid hitting each other, more luck than skill i think
Good point on the Caterham feeder series, I've seen some monumentally bad driving/red rist/BTTC driving over the years.
woof said:
I've never known anyone to be banned in club racing - despite how dangerous they are.
There were a couple in the 1970s but I can't think of anyone more recent.To the OP - alot of clubs self regulate and if they feel that someone is driving beyond their limits or are a danger to others then they will have their entry refused - I know of a few clubs and drivers that this has happened to.
woof said:
I've never known anyone to be banned in club racing - despite how dangerous they are.
This - There are always one or two in each championship that cause incidents, and you see the same people having spectacular shunts again and again. You could say that it's a downside of the good atmosphere of club racing, everyone's matey and no-one wants to be banned, or more negatively it can be whoever is mates with the organisers always seems to be on the right side of the blame.In terms of the test, some people are perfectly capable of piloting a car around an empty track effectively (and thus would pass an ARDS easily) but then become overly aggressive or fall to pieces when they're in a pack of cars. It's not exclusive to club racing either, you see it in every level of the sport from Locosts to F1. Most drivers improve with time in the car, but some don't, and as racecraft isn't the sort of thing that can be taught or tested it needs to be managed with penalties post license. Force drivers to acknowledge their shortcomings and change their attitude accordingly.
A better ARDS test might improve the base level of technique by either giving training during the test or just by making drivers with poor technique train to achieve a pass, but unless the test is very, very specific and difficult then you're only filtering out the very slow rather than the trainable but inept. Let's face it, slow people are a nuisance but they're rarely dangerous and usually bring a stack of cash to the sport before they accept they're incurably crap and leave after a truncated season.
RB Will said:
I agree. For example the was a chap who used to enter one series at my local track who had a large budget so just had the best car but struggles a bit to control it and on separate occasions nigh on wrote off 2 other racers cars. .
Indeed. If ever there was a case of money and talent not being the same thing. I was struck by debris in the pit lane in the first incident which you mentioned. RB Will said:
Also seen quite a few races lately where people seemed to be in it just because they can be and are not competing with anyone which makes for a crappy show for the spectators who pay a lot of money to see some good racing. Also there was a thread on here not long ago where people were moaning about slow back markers ruining it for other drivers.
The driver putting in thousands a year to race likely doesn't care what a couple of spectators who have paid a tenner on the gate think.As long as they are safe then it is up to them, slow or fast. If your trackday friend is that unsafe then he won't last long.
RB Will said:
Obviously this may result in smaller grids but I would happily watch a 2 car race if they were really going at each other.
That two car race would be cancelled due to lack of entries.With the state of most championships at the moment without a few of the people you talk about they might well not exist. You NEED as many entries as possible to make the series succesful. Not everyone who wants to race is the next Senna, but if they are safe then i am happy to see thier name on the entry list supporting the series and enabling it to carry on.
Heres a question,
At what point do you think you are quick enough to enter a race series?
I am seriously thinking of entering either a sprint series or a few Time Attack events in the next few years (need to get new toy and do some track time under my belt).
Is it just a case of doing some track days and compairing your average lap time with those that compete?
At what point do you think you are quick enough to enter a race series?
I am seriously thinking of entering either a sprint series or a few Time Attack events in the next few years (need to get new toy and do some track time under my belt).
Is it just a case of doing some track days and compairing your average lap time with those that compete?
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