Will we see manufacturers taking the BTCC seriously again?
Discussion
As I grew up watching the mid to late 90's super tourers, I can't help think that the grids and crowds in the BTCC are getting back to the super tourer era. Which then makes me think, is it going to become a viable way for manufacturers to spend some money going racing again?
The positives I guess are excellent TV coverage, an already large grid, big crowds at the meetings, and the cars racing are 'attainable' to the general public and relevant to the manufacturers.
The negatives are the obvious cost... But surely it's cheaper than something like WRC, and more likely to generate sales than GT cars. I also think messing about with boost levels could put people off.
Could you imagine someone like Kia, or Hyundai getting involved (since they are a hot topic elsewhere)? They've got a bit of financial clout, chuck in some energy drink sponsors, a half decent driver or two and they could win races... MG have managed it, but they produce dross road cars!
Opinions anyone? I thought it could be an interesting discussion.
The positives I guess are excellent TV coverage, an already large grid, big crowds at the meetings, and the cars racing are 'attainable' to the general public and relevant to the manufacturers.
The negatives are the obvious cost... But surely it's cheaper than something like WRC, and more likely to generate sales than GT cars. I also think messing about with boost levels could put people off.
Could you imagine someone like Kia, or Hyundai getting involved (since they are a hot topic elsewhere)? They've got a bit of financial clout, chuck in some energy drink sponsors, a half decent driver or two and they could win races... MG have managed it, but they produce dross road cars!
Opinions anyone? I thought it could be an interesting discussion.
I spend a fair bit of time watching the BTCC and talking about it - and I genuinely don't know why there aren't more genuinely manufacturer backed teams.
Other than the one F1 race a year in the UK, it has to be by far the most supported race series in the year.
It isn't just the BTCC either, the support races are mostly epic.
I regularly watch live, then go home and watch the full 8 hours of ITV coverage again!
The costs are not bad at all from what I understand (relatively)for a proper manufacturer.
Other than the one F1 race a year in the UK, it has to be by far the most supported race series in the year.
It isn't just the BTCC either, the support races are mostly epic.
I regularly watch live, then go home and watch the full 8 hours of ITV coverage again!
The costs are not bad at all from what I understand (relatively)for a proper manufacturer.
I have to say I miss having work teams, but that is as much a hangover of growing up in the super-tourer era than anything else.
The problem being that a (relative) low cost formula will not stay low cost for long as manufacturers will start spending to get and edge, thus leading to an arms race and it would probably die the same death as super-tourers.
I share your hankerings, but going with the head over the heart for a moment, it is a pandoras box.
The problem being that a (relative) low cost formula will not stay low cost for long as manufacturers will start spending to get and edge, thus leading to an arms race and it would probably die the same death as super-tourers.
I share your hankerings, but going with the head over the heart for a moment, it is a pandoras box.
It does baffle me a little when I see manufacturers jumping into WRC, which after watching on TV last night appears to be a dying form of Motorsport.
Surely the VAG group would find it easier putting money into an already developed Passat CC or a pair of Audi A4's, than developing a WRC car from the ground up? Never mind the costs of racing it all over the world with minimal TV coverage.
Same could be said for Ford, BMW and Toyota.
Surely the VAG group would find it easier putting money into an already developed Passat CC or a pair of Audi A4's, than developing a WRC car from the ground up? Never mind the costs of racing it all over the world with minimal TV coverage.
Same could be said for Ford, BMW and Toyota.
LiamM45 said:
It does baffle me a little when I see manufacturers jumping into WRC, which after watching on TV last night appears to be a dying form of Motorsport.
Surely the VAG group would find it easier putting money into an already developed Passat CC or a pair of Audi A4's, than developing a WRC car from the ground up? Never mind the costs of racing it all over the world with minimal TV coverage.
Same could be said for Ford, BMW and Toyota.
and jumping out of WRC though - Citroën on way to WTCC.Surely the VAG group would find it easier putting money into an already developed Passat CC or a pair of Audi A4's, than developing a WRC car from the ground up? Never mind the costs of racing it all over the world with minimal TV coverage.
Same could be said for Ford, BMW and Toyota.
Maybe that's where they all are? WTCC and DTM? Fine championships and global.
The British market isn't quite on the big enough stage, maybe?
To be fair - MG and Honda do generally clear up in the BTCC, but if more manufacturers came in, I don't see why the costs would escalate with the current rules?
Really what we need, is the WTCC and DTM given the same sort of coverage that ITV4 gives the BTCC.
Also - the WRC.........
I really think as good as the BTCC is, the reason it's so popular is the deal with ITV4
RacerMDR said:
and jumping out of WRC though - Citroën on way to WTCC.
Maybe that's where they all are? WTCC and DTM? Fine championships and global.
The British market isn't quite on the big enough stage, maybe?
To be fair - MG and Honda do generally clear up in the BTCC, but if more manufacturers came in, I don't see why the costs would escalate with the current rules?
Really what we need, is the WTCC and DTM given the same sort of coverage that ITV4 gives the BTCC.
Also - the WRC.........
I really think as good as the BTCC is, the reason it's so popular is the deal with ITV4
DTM is exciting. I can't help thinking that part of its attraction for me is the amount of investment Audi, Merc and that other manufacturer put into it has something to do with my level of enthusiasm. BTCC seems amateurish in comparison. Mind you, the racing is fun to watch.Maybe that's where they all are? WTCC and DTM? Fine championships and global.
The British market isn't quite on the big enough stage, maybe?
To be fair - MG and Honda do generally clear up in the BTCC, but if more manufacturers came in, I don't see why the costs would escalate with the current rules?
Really what we need, is the WTCC and DTM given the same sort of coverage that ITV4 gives the BTCC.
Also - the WRC.........
I really think as good as the BTCC is, the reason it's so popular is the deal with ITV4
RacerMDR said:
I spend a fair bit of time watching the BTCC and talking about it - and I genuinely don't know why there aren't more genuinely manufacturer backed teams.
Ultimately it comes down to this: You watch BTCC and like it. Fine. Would you buy a car because you saw it going around a track and only occasionally hitting things/other cars (rather than all the time)? Consider that the race car in question doesn't have an engine available in the road going vehicle, indeed the engine could well be from a different manufacturer. The entire front end of the race car has nothing to do with the road going version and so on. The race car doesn't really look like the road going version either.
The answer for the vast majority is no, probably not.
When the manufacturer era was at its peak the cars you saw flying around a track looked just like the road going one, it had an engine based heavily on a production model and the front structure was from the road going car with (admittedly) modified suspension. The BTCC nowadays has little to do with road cars and thus isn't really relevant to manufacturers.
Derek Smith said:
DTM is exciting. I can't help thinking that part of its attraction for me is the amount of investment Audi, Merc and that other manufacturer put into it has something to do with my level of enthusiasm. BTCC seems amateurish in comparison. Mind you, the racing is fun to watch.
It does feel like the DTM is the next level down for ex F1 drivers.......and some cracking drivers on the way up. Based on that, it seems a bit more professional I would agree with you there.Of course you never know until you spend time under the covers!
I wonder what a year budget in DTM is......i'd wager millions rather than 100s of thousands.
Crafty_ said:
When the manufacturer era was at its peak the cars you saw flying around a track looked just like the road going one, it had an engine based heavily on a production model and the front structure was from the road going car with (admittedly) modified suspension. The BTCC nowadays has little to do with road cars and thus isn't really relevant to manufacturers.
Why did they change this?FunkyNige said:
Why did they change this?
Cost.As someone said above the manufacturer era was mega money. Multiple engines per race meeting, lots of development on chassis/engines - maybe for just one track.
More recently TOCA started changing the rules to help cut costs - for example 6/7 years ago I was at 888 on a shop tour, they showed us parts that previously they'd just make new ones off that suited what they wanted to do, for the upcoming season the rules had changed, forcing them to use stock parts. They were allowed to modify the stock parts, so thats exactly what they were doing.
Now the rules mandate a common subframe, from which you hang all the suspension. Although you can build your own engine you don't have to, you can go to Swindon engines and buy a Vauxhall based engine that is pretty cheap. The idea is its cheap for a privateer to build and race a car. The reason for the rules around NGTC body dimensions etc I'm not really sure, but they have seen the cars sprout arches and big deep bumpers that visually give the cars a different appearance. Of course if you use something nig enough to start with (like the VW Passat CC) its already wide enough, but not many cars are. They kinda look a bit max power to me.
Kia will be in touring cars within the next 3 years, no doubt about that. But it will more than likely be wtcc. Although 'less poplar' than btcc the European/global exposure from it is much better. Also, I'd rather hold a corporate meeting at monza in rather than snetterton if I was Kia.. Lol (no disrespect to snetterton, love the track, just not the most picturesque location!)
The sad fact is that 12 years ago many car companies had motorsport departments or people within their marketing team with knowledge of how to race on sundays and sell on Mondays. Today car companies are run by accountants who have more interest on lease deals than lap times and won't spend on something that they dont understand because it is emotional. Running a DTM team is massive money, multiples of millions, running a decent BTCC team today may well be a couple of million but just walk around the pits and you will see where the manufacturers just dont get it.....no display cars, no dealerships and no promotional material. Renault do a dreadful job promoting the Clio Championship, yet BMW at Oulton had a great display with some very helpful people. Its a shame but until the sales teams start asking for more motorsport to help them attract new clients not existing lease customers....the accountants will rule.
No and to be honest what we have now is perfect. The problem with manufactures and the super tourer era was money each team spends millions trying to out do each other when/ or what actually happened was one manufacture would dominate them bugger adding to the time where manufactures joined forces so several more left. Which left just 3 works team in 2000 and very little independent teams to prop up the grid.
If manufactures did come back in great numbers we would be in the same situation 5 years time. Keep it like this the rules are working teams that would never be able to build car during the 90s or even the s2000 era are building them. Yes they are expensive to build but overall the running cost are significantly less and with more cars being built the price of them will come down too. We have had 28 car enter the last round with at least 2-3 more joining later on in the year even in the golden age grids never went that high.
It would be nice to see mayby 1-2 more join but we have wsr getting more competitive, motorbase are getting there, Toyotas showing pace even the new Passat is proving competitive it's going to be a good few years for the btcc although the support races really need a shake up.
If manufactures did come back in great numbers we would be in the same situation 5 years time. Keep it like this the rules are working teams that would never be able to build car during the 90s or even the s2000 era are building them. Yes they are expensive to build but overall the running cost are significantly less and with more cars being built the price of them will come down too. We have had 28 car enter the last round with at least 2-3 more joining later on in the year even in the golden age grids never went that high.
It would be nice to see mayby 1-2 more join but we have wsr getting more competitive, motorbase are getting there, Toyotas showing pace even the new Passat is proving competitive it's going to be a good few years for the btcc although the support races really need a shake up.
I prefer BTCC without manufacterers being involved. There seems to be less cheque book racing and it seems to be more grassroots/club racing at it's best and less corporate hospitality pushing cost up. There is a good spread of cars rather than one or two manufacturers getting involved and spoiling the whole effect.
The coverage on ITV is spot on. Again giving the impression of top-of-the-pile club racing not corporate bulls
t.
The coverage on ITV is spot on. Again giving the impression of top-of-the-pile club racing not corporate bulls
t.Crafty_ said:
Ultimately it comes down to this: You watch BTCC and like it. Fine. Would you buy a car because you saw it going around a track and only occasionally hitting things/other cars (rather than all the time)?
That's never how it's worked and nor will it ever be. A manufacturer uses (or used!) their involvement as part of their wider marketing efforts and helped to underpin the offer to the customer.The problem here is not with the BTCC but with how the car industry has changed. Today, you can buy a Ford Focus of Mondeo anywhere in the world. Historically, these sorts of cars were limited to specific regions. This global approach to model homogenousisation means that manufacturers are tending to focus a lot of marketing effort and spend in regions where they have not previously been successful - such as the Middle East, China, etc. The way people buy cars in the home market has also changed. It's far less emotive and more financially driven and less influenced by superfluous factors such as a marque's record on the track.
The BTCC used to be shown in many countries around the world, mainly on free-to-air channels, but this is no longer the case. DTM has a far wider global coverage hence the corporate involvement of Audi, BMW, etc.
However, the UK is an emerging market for several manufacturers looking to boost their profile and sales here and as has already been mentioned, joining the now Chinese owned MG marque, expect to see more Kias, Hyundais and possibly even the likes of Dacia starting to invest in the series if not directly then certainly in a supporting role.
It is a hugely popular sport, not just a race series. It is one of the UK's top five most attended sports and what has puzzled me more is the lack of more high street / known brands as sponsors. I think this has something to do with the "air of the amateur" about it which for fans like me and many here, is actually an advantage but for profile, prestige and image isn't what's needed.
BTCC is very attractive tactically to manufacturers in the UK...but it will never attract the 90s style budgets.
Why? Because the new rules are so simple and brilliantly executed. There's no need to spend more.
Toyota support several teams with bodyshells, Proton do the same. I guess BMW and Ford also offered some parts support to their teams. The manufacturers don't need to spend much to be involved. If they want to activate their marketing, then they hasve to spend (like Honda and MG do) . It would be good to see Ford, BMW, Proton, Toyota, Vauxhall and VW doing some promotion around the teams that choose their cars, but they don't need to.
However, under the current rules, it allows the likes of Rob Austin, Frank Wrathall and Adam Morgan to run up front - something that just couldn't have happened in the 90s SuperTouring era. The new rules are a real success story that can work for privateers and for manufacturers (at varying levels of investment)
Why? Because the new rules are so simple and brilliantly executed. There's no need to spend more.
Toyota support several teams with bodyshells, Proton do the same. I guess BMW and Ford also offered some parts support to their teams. The manufacturers don't need to spend much to be involved. If they want to activate their marketing, then they hasve to spend (like Honda and MG do) . It would be good to see Ford, BMW, Proton, Toyota, Vauxhall and VW doing some promotion around the teams that choose their cars, but they don't need to.
However, under the current rules, it allows the likes of Rob Austin, Frank Wrathall and Adam Morgan to run up front - something that just couldn't have happened in the 90s SuperTouring era. The new rules are a real success story that can work for privateers and for manufacturers (at varying levels of investment)
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