F1 vs Rally vs Touring
Discussion
Rally - without a doubt. Particularly in the older days of mammoth stages with no real reccy work. The driver has to process an unreal amount of information while driving as fast as he's willing to drive. These days, they run similar stages every year, there is more reccy work involved and the stages are shorted. They can 'learn' the stages like a race driver 'learns' a track. The old boys didn't get to do that anywhere near as much.
Evidence for my case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhAw86UDhHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGQZZrWlYiM
And I doubt that that new boys lack the ability either - it's just not that it's run that way anymore! One of my favourite rally vids, Jari Matti Latvala in a Mk2 Escort.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWBOKD6fGu0
imho opinion, salaries have no real bearing on how skillful a particular discipline is. It's all about how much money can be made from marketing that particular discipline. In that respect, unbeknownst why, F1 is king.
Edit: Also, although it's only a bit of a laugh it still adds some credence. The Race of Champions has been won every year, almost exclusively, by a rally driver.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_Champions
Evidence for my case
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhAw86UDhHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGQZZrWlYiM
And I doubt that that new boys lack the ability either - it's just not that it's run that way anymore! One of my favourite rally vids, Jari Matti Latvala in a Mk2 Escort.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWBOKD6fGu0
imho opinion, salaries have no real bearing on how skillful a particular discipline is. It's all about how much money can be made from marketing that particular discipline. In that respect, unbeknownst why, F1 is king.
Edit: Also, although it's only a bit of a laugh it still adds some credence. The Race of Champions has been won every year, almost exclusively, by a rally driver.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_Champions
Edited by motorhole on Wednesday 18th June 13:52
Boxer87 said:
slipstream 1985 said:
I would have said f1 is about handling.
All racing requires perfect handling, but F1 is truly about speed and racing line where as rallying you're using handbrake, drifting, controlling your car after jumps etc. slipstream 1985 said:
Boxer87 said:
slipstream 1985 said:
I would have said f1 is about handling.
All racing requires perfect handling, but F1 is truly about speed and racing line where as rallying you're using handbrake, drifting, controlling your car after jumps etc. Boxer87 said:
Just to make a point I do have a lot of respect for touring car drivers who are constantly heel and toeing the entire race. Just thought they deserve a mention!
Agree once saw a on board clip from Andrew Jordan around thruxton on his pole lap impressive without a chance and also going around church corner flat out one hand changing down with the other controlling a slide. From outside doesn't seem that intense.
Overall I would go for long distance rally drivers they have the hardest jobs out of the lot.
Rallying, no doubt about it, because you're dealing with ever changing grip levels.
All racing is about handling. Its the aesthetics and getting the best out of the car. F1 is more aero, so is DTM compared to other Touring Cars; BTCC and V8SC have more emphasis on mechanical grip, the latter you have a powerful heavy car with good aero and no TC.
Also I think NASCAR deserves a mention. To the ignorant its just turning left. Well yes but try doing it with a 1.5tonne car on skinny tyres so the tyre grip quickly falls off in a handful of laps which means the driver has to keep on top of the handling every lap let alone every stint in races that are about 3 hrs.
All racing is about handling. Its the aesthetics and getting the best out of the car. F1 is more aero, so is DTM compared to other Touring Cars; BTCC and V8SC have more emphasis on mechanical grip, the latter you have a powerful heavy car with good aero and no TC.
Also I think NASCAR deserves a mention. To the ignorant its just turning left. Well yes but try doing it with a 1.5tonne car on skinny tyres so the tyre grip quickly falls off in a handful of laps which means the driver has to keep on top of the handling every lap let alone every stint in races that are about 3 hrs.
entropy said:
Rallying, no doubt about it, because you're dealing with ever changing grip levels.
All racing is about handling. Its the aesthetics and getting the best out of the car. F1 is more aero, so is DTM compared to other Touring Cars; BTCC and V8SC have more emphasis on mechanical grip, the latter you have a powerful heavy car with good aero and no TC.
Also I think NASCAR deserves a mention. To the ignorant its just turning left. Well yes but try doing it with a 1.5tonne car on skinny tyres so the tyre grip quickly falls off in a handful of laps which means the driver has to keep on top of the handling every lap let alone every stint in races that are about 3 hrs.
Top gear - 6 min clip with the hamster - NASCAR All racing is about handling. Its the aesthetics and getting the best out of the car. F1 is more aero, so is DTM compared to other Touring Cars; BTCC and V8SC have more emphasis on mechanical grip, the latter you have a powerful heavy car with good aero and no TC.
Also I think NASCAR deserves a mention. To the ignorant its just turning left. Well yes but try doing it with a 1.5tonne car on skinny tyres so the tyre grip quickly falls off in a handful of laps which means the driver has to keep on top of the handling every lap let alone every stint in races that are about 3 hrs.
http://youtu.be/vtcbsi8itHw
Great clip, well worth a watch! Funny and and a great insight! It's amazing for spectators as well! Insanely powerful motors!!
After watching this I had a great deal of respect for NASCAR drivers!
I was going to include them initially in this thread but didn't think the British would take a liking to them lol
MG CHRIS said:
Agree once saw a on board clip from Andrew Jordan around thruxton on his pole lap impressive without a chance and also going around church corner flat out one hand changing down with the other controlling a slide.
Jordan seems to be one of those whose naturally quick no matter what he's in. His 3rd place at the European rally cross round the other week is testator that. Not bad going in a car he'd only driven twice before the weekend. And his first test was just a pure shakedown, no setup work was done at all. IMO, Rallying is the hardest discipline to master, as has been said even with pace notes and “safety” DVD’s there is no substitute for practising the roads. Reading the surfaces is another skill that only comes with experience and as a Rally car generally moves around a lot more than other forms of motorsport the drivers tend to be less fazed by a sudden loss of grip.
Having said that however, a good driver is a good driver in any form of motorsport, but I do think a top Rally driver would adapt to other forms of motorsport quicker.
Having said that however, a good driver is a good driver in any form of motorsport, but I do think a top Rally driver would adapt to other forms of motorsport quicker.
DanielSan said:
Jordan seems to be one of those whose naturally quick no matter what he's in. His 3rd place at the European rally cross round the other week is testator that. Not bad going in a car he'd only driven twice before the weekend. And his first test was just a pure shakedown, no setup work was done at all.
Yup, Jordan is a very good peddler. Hope to see him take on GTs and Le Mans at some point.
MG CHRIS said:
Boxer87 said:
Just to make a point I do have a lot of respect for touring car drivers who are constantly heel and toeing the entire race. Just thought they deserve a mention!
Agree once saw a on board clip from Andrew Jordan around thruxton on his pole lap impressive without a chance and also going around church corner flat out one hand changing down with the other controlling a slide. 
)And actually, Rallycross as it is now probably is the one sport that combines all of your criteria, F1 acceleration with loose surface handling skills and BTCC style close contact racing
aeropilot said:
And actually, Rallycross as it is now probably is the one sport that combines all of your criteria, F1 acceleration with loose surface handling skills and BTCC style close contact racing
Just misses out on the reading the road/no two corners are the same/nearby obstacles such as trees/etc of rallying. 
It probably does combine things better than anything else though.
Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 19th June 21:53
A guy I know who was a professional racing driver (Group A, Bathurst, Rallying in Open classes etc) & was a mechanic with his own automotive business - answered the very same question when I asked a number of years ago.
He said that without a doubt rallying was on another level from circuit racing. He also said - it's the trees which will kill you!
He used to drive all sorts of crazy cars from a semi-works M3 (Bathurst), to a Chev 350 powered Corolla, Mid-engined V8 Starlet, a 500 bhp mid-engined Subaru Justy & a factory backed 440 bhp Subaru (for Rally sprints). He was unequivocal in his belief that rallying was far more demanding.
He said that without a doubt rallying was on another level from circuit racing. He also said - it's the trees which will kill you!
He used to drive all sorts of crazy cars from a semi-works M3 (Bathurst), to a Chev 350 powered Corolla, Mid-engined V8 Starlet, a 500 bhp mid-engined Subaru Justy & a factory backed 440 bhp Subaru (for Rally sprints). He was unequivocal in his belief that rallying was far more demanding.
Ben - that's right - Trevor Crowe!
My first foray onto a track (Runapuna) was under Trevor's guidance.
I'm a Christchurch boy who's spent 18 years in Blighty.
Rallying remains one of the few branches of motorsport where a skilled & talented competitor can consistently trump a cheque-book warrior! This probably also remains true in some classes of motorbike racing. I believe that top rally drivers are among the few four-wheeled operators who are in any way comparable to IOM TT or GP Moto riders in terms of skill, bravery & sheer manliness!
To make it to Formula One today is less about skill (granted you have to a top competitor in the single-seater discipline)& as much about access to funding (whether it's your Dad pitching in with the readies - Max Chilton) or being recruited into an emerging driver sponsorship program through teams like McLaren (Lewis Hamilton) or Redbull (Sebastian Vettel & Daniel Riccardo.)
Contacts - especially mentorship by a team principal or an established leading driver are also virtually prerequisites.
I remember seeing a televised interview with David Coultard in which he explained that he accepted the team orders and number two driver conditions in his McLaren contract when racing with Mika Hakkinen because by then his father had mortgaged their house & they had effectively borrowed £800,000 just to get him into F1.
My first foray onto a track (Runapuna) was under Trevor's guidance.
I'm a Christchurch boy who's spent 18 years in Blighty.
Rallying remains one of the few branches of motorsport where a skilled & talented competitor can consistently trump a cheque-book warrior! This probably also remains true in some classes of motorbike racing. I believe that top rally drivers are among the few four-wheeled operators who are in any way comparable to IOM TT or GP Moto riders in terms of skill, bravery & sheer manliness!
To make it to Formula One today is less about skill (granted you have to a top competitor in the single-seater discipline)& as much about access to funding (whether it's your Dad pitching in with the readies - Max Chilton) or being recruited into an emerging driver sponsorship program through teams like McLaren (Lewis Hamilton) or Redbull (Sebastian Vettel & Daniel Riccardo.)
Contacts - especially mentorship by a team principal or an established leading driver are also virtually prerequisites.
I remember seeing a televised interview with David Coultard in which he explained that he accepted the team orders and number two driver conditions in his McLaren contract when racing with Mika Hakkinen because by then his father had mortgaged their house & they had effectively borrowed £800,000 just to get him into F1.
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