What makes such a talented man behave like an arse?
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motor
Why can't he just play it fair? He has the talent after all FFS.
It says more about his personality than anything else IMO.
Why can't he just play it fair? He has the talent after all FFS.
It says more about his personality than anything else IMO.
Let's see, the 7 time world champion, after posting what appears to, soon be, the 2nd fastest qualifying time, while in direct communication with his crew, in the exact final seconds of qualifying, with the faster challenger closing on him, misses the corner on one of the slowest corners on the entire course, can't find reverse and stalls the car, literally blocking a fair opportunity for his competitor, I guess it might not have been intentional.
Seriously, the "Win at any cost", "The end justifies the means" mentality is an infectious disease that seems to eradicate ethical behavior in alot of people around the world these days, I just think in our heart of hearts we'd like to believe that True Sportsmen might be immune.
>> Edited by LS2 V8 Miata on Sunday 28th May 14:51
Seriously, the "Win at any cost", "The end justifies the means" mentality is an infectious disease that seems to eradicate ethical behavior in alot of people around the world these days, I just think in our heart of hearts we'd like to believe that True Sportsmen might be immune.
>> Edited by LS2 V8 Miata on Sunday 28th May 14:51
ApexClipper said:
I know there's a thread running over on General Motorsport, but the more I think about this, the more I'm unconvinced that it was deliberate...
Question for you.Why do you think every racing driver (past or present) has either declared it was deliberate or kept quie? As yet the only people defending him are his team,even Maxz was somewhat critical
ApexClipper said:"Deliberate" as in "pre-planned", or as in "intentional"?
I know there's a thread running over on General Motorsport, but the more I think about this, the more I'm unconvinced that it was deliberate...
It doesn't matter whether at the start of the session or, indeed, even five seconds before it happened, he set out to do it.
What matters is whether what happened was forced upon him, or was within his power to avert.
Do you really think that he simply lost control and couldn't keep the car from understeering neatly to a resting point one foot from the barrier?
flemke said:I disagree. I think it was more like 0.5s - ie. split-second decision. A bad decision, no question. Reprehensible, unsportsmanlike certainly. But I don't think it was pre-meditated like you suggest.
It doesn't matter whether at the start of the session or, indeed, even five seconds before it happened, he set out to do it.
tvrforever said:
With any luck the cheating lying scum will skulk off and leave the new tallent to shine...
Although I wouldn't go so far as to describe him thus, there being a considerable history of marginal decisions by the top drivers (Senna, in Suzuka, for instance), I do think he should have gone at the end of '04. As it is, he's lost the chance to be asked 'why did you retire then' rather than 'why didn't you retire then'.
J111 said:
With any luck the cheating lying scum will skulk off and leave the new tallent to shine...
Although I wouldn't go so far as to describe him thus, there being a considerable history of marginal decisions by the top drivers (Senna, in Suzuka, for instance), I do think he should have gone at the end of '04. As it is, he's lost the chance to be asked 'why did you retire then' rather than 'why didn't you retire then'.
Similarly I used to have respect for him as a driver - now however can only believe he is damaging his and, more importantly the business's (no longer a sport, reputation...
To stop early with honour and reputation is far better than to hang on too long and lose both...
still think he's a lying cheating scumbag now though
Come on chaps, anyone remember the shenanigans of one Ayrton Senna? Clearly this is just the unpleasant side of a similarly massive, all encompassing desire to win. In five or ten years time do you think anyone will be saying "yes, that Schumacher was a reasonable driver but when he pulled that move at Monaco 2006 I just lost all respect for him"....I don't think so.
He will remain the most complete and successful F1 driver in the history of the sport for many years yet (much as I hate to admit it..
)
He will remain the most complete and successful F1 driver in the history of the sport for many years yet (much as I hate to admit it..
)JonRB said:Jon,
It doesn't matter whether at the start of the session or, indeed, even five seconds before it happened, he set out to do it.
I wasn't trying to suggest that it was premeditated, as in, part of a plan, at all.
My whole point was that it does not matter whether it was planned, What matters is whether he did it voluntarily or he could not avoid it.
I think the most likely explanation is that sometime in the past, whether that be a week ago or a decade ago, it occurred to him that one might be on a circuit where overtaking is nearly impossible, and one might have set the fastest qualifier with just a minute or two remaining. In those circumstances, IF one's car happened to stop at an unsighted spot, the qualifying session would effectively be over and one's fastest lap would have secured pole.
The man is obsessed with F1 and with winning, so it is very hard to think that he had never imagined this scenario, if only fleetingly.
Yesterday he knew that he had pole (Ferrari have now admitted that he knew), and even if his team had not told him to push harder because Alonso was on a hot one (although they may have done), the strategem that had occurred fleetingly to him some time previous probably flashed through his mind. He acted upon it, probably with no thought of doing so until, as you say, 0.5 sec before he chose to do so. Chose to do so.
This is no different from when he punted off Hill to "win" a Championship, or when he did his best to punt off Villeneuve to win another. The exact details of these things can never be premeditated, but the fundamental willingness to act in such a way is certainly within the consciousness of intelligent people.
Unlike in a murder trial, premeditation is not at issue. Schumacher has more GP experience, and success, than any man in history. At this point if he is unable to keep in check whatever emotions impell him to behave badly, he has no business on a circuit.
>> Edited by flemke on Sunday 28th May 15:44
stumartin said:I don't know, Stu.
Come on chaps, anyone remember the shenanigans of one Ayrton Senna? Clearly this is just the unpleasant side of a similarly massive, all encompassing desire to win. In five or ten years time do you think anyone will be saying "yes, that Schumacher was a reasonable driver but when he pulled that move at Monaco 2006 I just lost all respect for him"....I don't think so.
He will remain the most complete and successful F1 driver in the history of the sport for many years yet (much as I hate to admit it..
Schuey has built up an impressively rich history of this sort of thing.
People certainly do recall Senna's bad behaviour - it remains the stain on his otherwise sainted memory.
Indeed, people still remember Giuseppe Farina (Pinin's uncle, IINM) as much for his infamously dirty driving as they do for the fact that he was the first F1 World Champion.
It's an historical fact that Schuey is the most successful F1 driver. Do you really think that he is the most complete as well? How are you defining "most complete"?
flemke said:
I think the most likely explanation is that sometime in the past, whether that be a week ago or a decade ago, it occurred to him that one might be on a circuit where overtaking is nearly impossible, and one might have set the fastest qualifier with just a minute or two remaining. In those circumstances, IF one's car happened to stop at an unsighted spot, the qualifying session would effectively be over and one's fastest lap would have secured pole.
>> Edited by flemke on Sunday 28th May 15:36
But isnt it thinking about every eventuallity and working out a way to deal with that situation to your own advantage the difference between being an also-ran and the 'best'? In all aspects of life?
flemke said:
The man is obsessed with F1 and with winning
Is that a bad thing??
stumartin said:
Come on chaps, anyone remember the shenanigans of one Ayrton Senna? Clearly this is just the unpleasant side of a similarly massive, all encompassing desire to win. In five or ten years time do you think anyone will be saying "yes, that Schumacher was a reasonable driver but when he pulled that move at Monaco 2006 I just lost all respect for him"....I don't think so.
He will remain the most complete and successful F1 driver in the history of the sport for many years yet (much as I hate to admit it..
True, it's not like Schumacher hasn't been a selfish prick before, but then, with some exceptions, you sort of need to have that type of personality trait to succeed, examine many successful people, whether sports people or in other professions, and you often find they are considered rude, arrogant, selfish bastards, mainly because these are the people who want to get what they want no matter the cost, hence they tend to be more successful, nice people are generally too timid and afraid of putting noses out of joint. It's the same in romance as well, why do you think women go for pricks? They are the only ones who are putting themselves on the line, nice guys stand back muttering under their breath expecting things on a plate complaining about 'unfairness'.
In fact the weasel in me thinks it was actually quite a clever and cunning move by the hun, but it would have been better for his reputation for him to admit to it once caught out and apologise for a lack of sportsmanship, and perhaps offering to retire or at least have a self imposed ban and sit the race out. He would have gained at least some respect back for admitting his mistake, maybe even gained some as it takes a lot of guts to admit you were wrong. Though I guess since everyone already seems to hate him already, and the tifosi are blind to such things, then he feels he doesn't have that much to lose.
doctorpepper said:Doc,
I think the most likely explanation is that sometime in the past, whether that be a week ago or a decade ago, it occurred to him that one might be on a circuit where overtaking is nearly impossible, and one might have set the fastest qualifier with just a minute or two remaining. In those circumstances, IF one's car happened to stop at an unsighted spot, the qualifying session would effectively be over and one's fastest lap would have secured pole.
But isnt it thinking about every eventuallity and working out a way to deal with that situation to your own advantage the difference between being an also-ran and the 'best'? In all aspects of life?
flemke said:
The man is obsessed with F1 and with winning
Is that a bad thing??
I don't think that anyone in any forum has ever criticised Schuey for being obsessed with winning, any more than they criticised Lance Armstrong or Tiger Woods or Steve Redgrave.
The difference is that those guys, and most every other competitor in every other form of sport, recognise that the whole point is to win by doing something better than the rest, not by contriving underhand shortcuts such as forcing people off the track, crashing into them, or pulling stunts like parking up in a crucial spot to shut down the qualifying session.
We respect and admire Schuey's dedication and focus. We deplore his apparent lack of ethics and willingness to do anything that he can think of to benefit himself - regardless of fair play.
If you win by practising fair play then you are a true Champion. If you win by breaking the letter or even the spirit of the rules, you are a talented, obsessed fraud.
If Raikkonen and Alonso fail to consider every possibility, they're not doing their job. That does not mean that they should feel free to act on every possibility, just because they might get away with it.
Michael Schumacher is far from the first F1 driver to have twigged on that if he could take his nearest competitor out of a Championship-deciding race, then he himself would be Champion. He is, however, one of the very few to have attempted to do so, more than once.
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