Honda's problems
Discussion
As Honda are currently in the mire, I feel it is now appropriate to reveal that I think the problems lay with the the recruitment of Rubens Barichello.
If you'll let me explain for a minute
when rubens joined Honda he was on the testing pace, but when the races started he was a long way from Button and generally dicking around the back, muttering about the car not set up for his driving style. at this point JB was qualifying near the front.
Eventually rubens got the honda to his liking, and was able to drive it better than button, but was still only good enough for 8th. so it can be seen that a car set up for rubens isn't nearly as effective as a car set up for button.
couple with comments in this weeks autosport that honda have 'lost their way' it can be seen that rubens has basically
ed it up for them. get the car back to how button likes it, and hey presto, you'll be a lot closer to the front than you are.
If you'll let me explain for a minute
when rubens joined Honda he was on the testing pace, but when the races started he was a long way from Button and generally dicking around the back, muttering about the car not set up for his driving style. at this point JB was qualifying near the front.
Eventually rubens got the honda to his liking, and was able to drive it better than button, but was still only good enough for 8th. so it can be seen that a car set up for rubens isn't nearly as effective as a car set up for button.
couple with comments in this weeks autosport that honda have 'lost their way' it can be seen that rubens has basically
ed it up for them. get the car back to how button likes it, and hey presto, you'll be a lot closer to the front than you are. hut49 said:
But surely they set up the car for each driver separately. I can't see that whatever changes were made to RB's car would influence of affect the set up for JB's car. I think it's just a problem with lack of grunt and poor engineering management.
Just look at Toyota for evidence about how the build of the car can suit one driver and not another. Trulli dominated Ralf in the TF105. When the zero keel TF105B came out last last season, Trulli's performance fell right off.
Perceived wisdom is that Button was just better at driving round the problems with the Honda.
Once again, they interviewed Nick Fry and all we got was that stupid inane grin. IMHO that guy is totally out of his depth. His will be the next head to roll - and it won't be long.
They're either down on power or haven't kept pace with the development of others teams, Saturday practice at Magny Cours they were 16th (Button) and 21st (Barrichello) through the speed trap at the end of the main straight. 18th & 22nd in the USA, 12th & 13th in Canada and 7th & 10th in Britain. Now they haven't been the quickest cars through the speed traps anyway, Button's pace has always been attributed to smooth style and preserving corner speed (very Jackie Stewart'esque) so something's go wrong, the balance of the cars, not enough development, no engine upgrading from Honda.
My preception is poor management, poor integration of Honda employees and a lack of team building by the drivers.
The engineers have proved in the past that they can build a fast car and both drivers have ability.
Have either drivers walked around the factory and taken an interest in the tech staff? No. Contrast this with MS who exudes such gratitude and enthusiasm towards everyone in his team.
The engineers have proved in the past that they can build a fast car and both drivers have ability.
Have either drivers walked around the factory and taken an interest in the tech staff? No. Contrast this with MS who exudes such gratitude and enthusiasm towards everyone in his team.
magic torch said:
Yep, agree with what ramthorne has said.
I feel they're lacking a driver capable of developing and motivating a team into a front runner.
MS is far from my favourite F1 driver, but he's shown what's required of a driver to complete the package.
I feel they're lacking a driver capable of developing and motivating a team into a front runner.
MS is far from my favourite F1 driver, but he's shown what's required of a driver to complete the package.
If Button hadn't joined in '03 they wouldn't be in a position to consider what they currently have as disappointing. The problem is not with the drivers.
hut49 said:
How much did Button pay out of his pocket to break his Williams contract
Nowt.
Honda paid off his contract, and I think Button had to sign on to Honda for X number of years plus a further option, plus sign over some image rights, IIRC.
I think the fee Honda paid to Williams was about $16m
kevin ritson said:
magic torch said:
Yep, agree with what ramthorne has said.
I feel they're lacking a driver capable of developing and motivating a team into a front runner.
MS is far from my favourite F1 driver, but he's shown what's required of a driver to complete the package.
I feel they're lacking a driver capable of developing and motivating a team into a front runner.
MS is far from my favourite F1 driver, but he's shown what's required of a driver to complete the package.
If Button hadn't joined in '03 they wouldn't be in a position to consider what they currently have as disappointing. The problem is not with the drivers.
I'm not disputing that either driver is capable of being a front runner, RB has shown he can win Grands Prix.
What JB doesn't seem to be able to do is turn a bad car around. If the car isn't great, generally neither is his performance. 2001 Benetton for example.
magic torch said:
What JB doesn't seem to be able to do is turn a bad car around. If the car isn't great, generally neither is his performance. 2001 Benetton for example.
In 2001 the Renault engine was underpowered. They were using a radical wide-angle 111-degree V10 which was soon dropped for 2002. No one could got any more pace or results out of that thing.
FourWheelDrift said:
magic torch said:
What JB doesn't seem to be able to do is turn a bad car around. If the car isn't great, generally neither is his performance. 2001 Benetton for example.
In 2001 the Renault engine was underpowered. They were using a radical wide-angle 111-degree V10 which was soon dropped for 2002. No one could got any more pace or results out of that thing.
Fissi got more pace, and results.
GarrettMacD said:
hut49 said:
How much did Button pay out of his pocket to break his Williams contract
Nowt.
Honda paid off his contract
My understanding from the media coverage (what other source is there?) at the time was that Button paid off Williams, not Honda. Honda signed Button up on a 5 year contract @ GBP 10m.
hut49 said:
GarrettMacD said:
hut49 said:
How much did Button pay out of his pocket to break his Williams contract
Nowt.
Honda paid off his contract
My understanding from the media coverage (what other source is there?) at the time was that Button paid off Williams, not Honda. Honda signed Button up on a 5 year contract @ GBP 10m.
Be under no illusion, however, that Honda was not the underlying source of the funding.
JB wasn't going to sign a deal with Honda whilst he was still negotiating with Williams to break his contract, was he?
He would have got to the stage where he knew what it would cost him to break with Williams, and offsetting that cost would have been a component of his deal with Honda.
Edited by flemke on Thursday 20th July 22:31
ramthorne said:
Have either drivers walked around the factory and taken an interest in the tech staff? No. Contrast this with MS who exudes such gratitude and enthusiasm towards everyone in his team.
Wrong - Button has spent a lot of time there. I can't speak for RB, but he's such a genuine guy that I have no doubt he's behind the team too.
magic torch said:
In 2001 the Renault engine was underpowered. They were using a radical wide-angle 111-degree V10 which was soon dropped for 2002. No one could got any more pace or results out of that thing.
Fissi got more pace, and results.[/quote]
FFS!!!!! Fisi had, what was it, 5 years of prior F1 experience and several driving for the Benetton setup, of course he bloody well got more out of the car!!!!!!!
flemke said:
Be under no illusion, however, that Honda was not the underlying source of the funding.
JB wasn't going to sign a deal with Honda whilst he was still negotiating with Williams to break his contract, was he?
He would have got to the stage where he knew what it would cost him to break with Williams, and offsetting that cost would have been a component of his deal with Honda.
Edited by flemke on Thursday 20th July 22:31
Absolutely on the button there, as it were
the money passed through Button to Williams via Honda. I wasn't aware that image rights were part of the deal though...rubystone said:
FFS!!!!! Fisi had, what was it, 5 years of prior F1 experience and several driving for the Benetton setup, of course he bloody well got more out of the car!!!!!!!
The post said: No one could got any more pace or results out of that thing.
History shows some one clearly did.
Edited by magic torch on Thursday 20th July 22:43
hut49 said:
GarrettMacD said:
hut49 said:
How much did Button pay out of his pocket to break his Williams contract
Nowt.
Honda paid off his contract
My understanding from the media coverage (what other source is there?) at the time was that Button paid off Williams, not Honda. Honda signed Button up on a 5 year contract @ GBP 10m.
I personally think that Honda have made a bad investment in Jenson. I would love him to prove me wrong, but I don't think he will. I worry about the constantly negative comments in the press about the car, if I was a member of the team I would find it very hard to find the motivation to put that guy on the podium. Not to mention that he always seems to have 'no idea' what's wrong with the car, which is bugger-all use as feedback for development. The Honda isn't the quickest car on the grid, but a Schumacher or a Raikonnen would have stretched it to a win by now.
But rather than just start Button-bashing, there are problems in the team. Nick Fry doesn't come across as an effective team principal, and they are lacking a Briatore or a Todt to kick their backsides onto the top of the podium. It couldn't hurt if they waved that fat chequebook in the face of some of the big R&D anmes from the other teams either. There just doesn't seem to the be the competitive cut-throat mentality there is in other teams IMHO, it just seems to be about 'doing their best'.
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