Motorsport Safety
Discussion
I read with interest the article in Saturdays motoring section of the Toryograph.
see www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2006/08/26/mfmsa26.xml
also the sub article on helmets very useful.
However I wonderd what the Comp. Licence holders thought of a) the article and b) the MSA's attitude to saftey.
It left me with the feeling that they are going for overkill! sorry no pun intended!!.
JohnEM.
see www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2006/08/26/mfmsa26.xml
also the sub article on helmets very useful.
However I wonderd what the Comp. Licence holders thought of a) the article and b) the MSA's attitude to saftey.
It left me with the feeling that they are going for overkill! sorry no pun intended!!.
JohnEM.
The MSA should be trying to let petrolheads enjoy their cars in some safety, with as little restriction as possible. It seems more as if they are trying to ensure you can only rally in current manufacturers models, and are not interested in the man on the street otherwise. Are they just trying to cover their backs so they can't be sued when something goes wrong? We all know that motorsport is dangerous, FFS! You can't eliminate risk, and we seem to be at the stage where motorsport is being strangled in a futile attempt to eliminate every conceivable risk.
lord summerisle said:
and dont HANS devices become mandatory in the next couple of seasons?
If they do I hope they come down in price !!! I keep looking at them but 600-700 quid plus probably a new helmet is a lot to find from the budget... Yes I know its a lot cheaper than being dead but its still money you've got to find..
the stress ECG is utter madness... good job i've got a few years to go yet !!!
Let's keep in mind that all this malarkey is the FIA's idea, not the MSA's.
Interesting paragraph in the article:
"Some FIA regulations were written 20 years ago," says one legislative insider, "and they've been allowed to drift since then." Many competitors are less charitable, suggesting that the FIA has forgotten what it was set up for, and is now a self-serving, self-financing body feeding lucrative work to medical and technical committee members.
Interesting paragraph in the article:
"Some FIA regulations were written 20 years ago," says one legislative insider, "and they've been allowed to drift since then." Many competitors are less charitable, suggesting that the FIA has forgotten what it was set up for, and is now a self-serving, self-financing body feeding lucrative work to medical and technical committee members.
lord summerisle said:
and dont HANS devices become mandatory in the next couple of seasons?
If they do, I won't be racing. That'll nearly double the car budget for a year.
How many more people are killed on public roads on the way to races, than actually on the track? Maybe it's time full face helmets were mandatory in road cars.
Track day safety. (especially relitive to racing) that's a joke then. An over enthusiastic kid in a big rwd BMW off e-bay for £50, no idea what condition it is in mechanically, no MOT or scrutineering but still does ~150mph round a track with a std seatbelt (how old/many previous crashes!) and questionable helmet.
Pete
Graham said:
...plus probably a new helmet is a lot to find from the budget... Yes I know its a lot cheaper than being dead but its still money you've got to find.
Most helmets these days come pre drilled for HANS ready for the mounting posts to be fitted retrospectively. Once my debts from this season are covered I'll be seriously looking into getting a HANS device as one of my priorities over the winter. Compared to the cost of this season £6-700 will be a drop in the ocean!
Regards
Iain
Pistol Pete said:
Track day safety. (especially relitive to racing) that's a joke then. An over enthusiastic kid in a big rwd BMW off e-bay for £50, no idea what condition it is in mechanically, no MOT or scrutineering but still does ~150mph round a track with a std seatbelt (how old/many previous crashes!) and questionable helmet.
Pete
Please tell me which old Beemer I can buy for £50 that will do 150 mph down the straight of any track I'm aware of. I needed £10K worth of motorsport hardware packed in an old Saab to do that at Brunters...
OK, that one has the aerodynamic efficiency of a brick, but so does an old BMW. And the £10K figure included cornering and stopping as well as going. What can I say other than 'exaggeration makes things clearer'
An e34 vintage 5 series can be got without an MOT with a big engine for pocket money, maybe not £50 but possibly £100. I think Pete was exaggerating to make a point, however I do go out on trackdays in my £300 e30 and I've never been asked for proof of an MoT or infact anything to say or check that the car is road worthy, or track worthy for that matter, except that the car doesn't exceed so many decibels, which is more to do with keeping the NIMBYs happy than anything else.
Regards
Iain
Regards
Iain
I bought my helmet and my overalls prior to my first event in 1992. Both are still valid, at least the scrutineer yesterday seemed happy with them and Section Q of the blue book makes no mention of the standards being deleted. When we bought my former step son a helmet to go karting we got it from a motorbike shop and I got one that complied with the standard in section Q - don't remember the British Standard number off the top of my head, but I insisted on the Type that was needed if he wanted to do MSA events and the chap in the shop said "oh you want a good one then" (!)
I replaced my belts a couple of seasons ago, not because they were non-compliant but because they were showing their age. The extinguisher I had to remove or replace a few years back because it was Halon.
I don't hold a race licence or an international licence, mine is Non Race Nat B as that's all I'll ever need to do any sprint or hill that I might want to do. It certainly doesn't require me to undergo any of the medical procedures listed.
Overall I don't find the safety requirements in section Q particularly onerous. I did find the article a bit of a rant - the author describes the MSA as "self appointed", wheras they are the sole governing body recognised by the FIA. As I understand it that wouldn't stop some other organisation setting up their own governing body with their own set of rules and so on and applying to the FIA to be the recognised body for the UK. It also ignores the fact that there are a number of car racing disciplines that don't come under the auspices of the MSA - short oval stock car / banger racing and autograss are two examples that come immediately to mind.
On the other front of event safety rather than individual competitor safety, I like that there are minimum safety requirements laid down for organisers when running events, both with my competitor head on and my clerk of the course head on. Being given a set of standards so I know I must get a rescue unit, I must get an MSA licensed paramedic or a doctor etc means that I don't have to estimate what is needed in terms of skilled rescue / medical crew and equipment to make the event safe and if I am competing at an event I know that there will always be appropriate trained people there.
I certainly have issues with the MSA in some regards, but that's to do with (1) the direction one of the specialist committees is moving and (2) the weighty missive that arrived through my letter box earlier this month entitled "MSA child protection policy" and not to do with safety requirements for competitors or events, or in most cases due to rule changes.
I replaced my belts a couple of seasons ago, not because they were non-compliant but because they were showing their age. The extinguisher I had to remove or replace a few years back because it was Halon.
I don't hold a race licence or an international licence, mine is Non Race Nat B as that's all I'll ever need to do any sprint or hill that I might want to do. It certainly doesn't require me to undergo any of the medical procedures listed.
Overall I don't find the safety requirements in section Q particularly onerous. I did find the article a bit of a rant - the author describes the MSA as "self appointed", wheras they are the sole governing body recognised by the FIA. As I understand it that wouldn't stop some other organisation setting up their own governing body with their own set of rules and so on and applying to the FIA to be the recognised body for the UK. It also ignores the fact that there are a number of car racing disciplines that don't come under the auspices of the MSA - short oval stock car / banger racing and autograss are two examples that come immediately to mind.
On the other front of event safety rather than individual competitor safety, I like that there are minimum safety requirements laid down for organisers when running events, both with my competitor head on and my clerk of the course head on. Being given a set of standards so I know I must get a rescue unit, I must get an MSA licensed paramedic or a doctor etc means that I don't have to estimate what is needed in terms of skilled rescue / medical crew and equipment to make the event safe and if I am competing at an event I know that there will always be appropriate trained people there.
I certainly have issues with the MSA in some regards, but that's to do with (1) the direction one of the specialist committees is moving and (2) the weighty missive that arrived through my letter box earlier this month entitled "MSA child protection policy" and not to do with safety requirements for competitors or events, or in most cases due to rule changes.
Pistol Pete said:
lord summerisle said:
and dont HANS devices become mandatory in the next couple of seasons?
If they do, I won't be racing. That'll nearly double the car budget for a year.
How many more people are killed on public roads on the way to races, than actually on the track? Maybe it's time full face helmets were mandatory in road cars.
Track day safety. (especially relitive to racing) that's a joke then. An over enthusiastic kid in a big rwd BMW off e-bay for £50, no idea what condition it is in mechanically, no MOT or scrutineering but still does ~150mph round a track with a std seatbelt (how old/many previous crashes!) and questionable helmet.
Pete
Pistol Pete said:
lord summerisle said:
and dont HANS devices become mandatory in the next couple of seasons?
If they do, I won't be racing. That'll nearly double the car budget for a year.
How many more people are killed on public roads on the way to races, than actually on the track? Maybe it's time full face helmets were mandatory in road cars.
Track day safety. (especially relitive to racing) that's a joke then. An over enthusiastic kid in a big rwd BMW off e-bay for £50, no idea what condition it is in mechanically, no MOT or scrutineering but still does ~150mph round a track with a std seatbelt (how old/many previous crashes!) and questionable helmet.
Pete
I was thinking that just the other day, But Percentage wise you are far mor likely to crash on the track.
As for the KID in his £50 car, it is usually the more mature driver in a machine that he has worked hard on that stoves it into the Armco, don't ask me why though!!
900T-R said:
Pistol Pete said:
Track day safety. (especially relitive to racing) that's a joke then. An over enthusiastic kid in a big rwd BMW off e-bay for £50, no idea what condition it is in mechanically, no MOT or scrutineering but still does ~150mph round a track with a std seatbelt (how old/many previous crashes!) and questionable helmet.
Pete
Please tell me which old Beemer I can buy for £50 that will do 150 mph down the straight of any track I'm aware of. I needed £10K worth of motorsport hardware packed in an old Saab to do that at Brunters...
Ok, maybe slight exaggeration, but I did a trackday earlier this year as Silverstone where there were a few of these type of car around. I believe there were 13 spins on the out-lap of the first session. I stayed away from them, but there was not really what I'd describe as good driving, and I'd rather take my car home in 1 piece, and if I am going to really push the limit I at least wait till the pack has spread out and theirs not loads of cars around me. Alot of those drivers needed stop watching BTCC driving standards and introduced to stock rods and short oval racing.
Pete
Edited by Pistol Pete on Wednesday 30th August 10:02
It's so easy to attack the MSA, but the reality is that they are bound by FIA rules, governed by the dreaded Health & Safety (including Child protection) legislation and the Insurance underwriters requirements for liability and personal accident claims....facts that the journo seems willing to quickly overlook for the simple sake of having a "pop" at the MSA.
I can guarantee that if the journo was involved in a horrific accident that (say) resulted in the death or injury of another person, he would be mighty grateful for the fact that he is fully protected from being sued - for millions - due to the fact that the MSA made him comply with everything that they are also forced to comply with.
I can guarantee that if the journo was involved in a horrific accident that (say) resulted in the death or injury of another person, he would be mighty grateful for the fact that he is fully protected from being sued - for millions - due to the fact that the MSA made him comply with everything that they are also forced to comply with.
I read that rant in Saturday's Tele' with interest as a MSA Scrutineer and a Health & Safety Professional. The writer seemed most concerned about the stringent health checks imposed by the FIA for him to hold an International licence. These checks I'm certain are not as rigorous for National licences.
His other point related to the safety equipment that he was required to wear, and how his car was still allowed to compete in the same state as when it was new 30-40 years previously. He seemed to be very dismissive of the number of serious/fatal incidents that used to happen in the sport and presumed that he and his "gentlemen drivers" colleagues would be unlikely to ever be in such a situation. I disagreed with his assertion that they should be allowed to race without some of the modern safety features that are now commonplace in almost all motor sports, namely fire resistant clothing and protective helmets. These basic, relatively low cost, items could significantly imporve the driver's chance of survival in an accident in a car that has very few safety features built in. Perhaps he would prefer that the Regulations were tightened to require the car to have a certificated roll cage, FT3 bag tank, crush structures, modern lights and brakes etc? I'd personally prefer to see the driver protected without having to ruin a classic motor.
He also seemed to dismiss the fact that attitudes have changed. Have we not progressed as a society now that we don't expect our sportsmen to be killed or maimed? How about the litigation culture that has spread from the US? If one of these "gentlemen racers" was killed or seriously injured do you honestly think that the family and dependants would not consider a claim that the organisers were negligent in allowing them to compete in such a dangerous activity without insisting basic safeguards were in place? How about the organisers and event officials who might witness and have to investigate such an incident, then attend a Coroner's Court Fatal Accident Enquiry?
With an H&S hat on I'm not out to stop people having fun, enjoying the thrills etc, but I do think that risks should be considered and mitigated. After all, we're all out to enjoy our sport, most of us as volunteers.
As for the latest MSA "directive" - Child Protection Policy and Guidance. I'm just glad I've decided to resign from my motor club committee as I no longer have time to try and keep things up to date and fully compliant.
His other point related to the safety equipment that he was required to wear, and how his car was still allowed to compete in the same state as when it was new 30-40 years previously. He seemed to be very dismissive of the number of serious/fatal incidents that used to happen in the sport and presumed that he and his "gentlemen drivers" colleagues would be unlikely to ever be in such a situation. I disagreed with his assertion that they should be allowed to race without some of the modern safety features that are now commonplace in almost all motor sports, namely fire resistant clothing and protective helmets. These basic, relatively low cost, items could significantly imporve the driver's chance of survival in an accident in a car that has very few safety features built in. Perhaps he would prefer that the Regulations were tightened to require the car to have a certificated roll cage, FT3 bag tank, crush structures, modern lights and brakes etc? I'd personally prefer to see the driver protected without having to ruin a classic motor.
He also seemed to dismiss the fact that attitudes have changed. Have we not progressed as a society now that we don't expect our sportsmen to be killed or maimed? How about the litigation culture that has spread from the US? If one of these "gentlemen racers" was killed or seriously injured do you honestly think that the family and dependants would not consider a claim that the organisers were negligent in allowing them to compete in such a dangerous activity without insisting basic safeguards were in place? How about the organisers and event officials who might witness and have to investigate such an incident, then attend a Coroner's Court Fatal Accident Enquiry?
With an H&S hat on I'm not out to stop people having fun, enjoying the thrills etc, but I do think that risks should be considered and mitigated. After all, we're all out to enjoy our sport, most of us as volunteers.
As for the latest MSA "directive" - Child Protection Policy and Guidance. I'm just glad I've decided to resign from my motor club committee as I no longer have time to try and keep things up to date and fully compliant.
touring fan said:
It's so easy to attack the MSA, but the reality is that they are bound by FIA rules, governed by the dreaded Health & Safety (including Child protection) legislation and the Insurance underwriters requirements for liability and personal accident claims....facts that the journo seems willing to quickly overlook for the simple sake of having a "pop" at the MSA.
AS far as I know, Health & Safety legislation has got nothing to do with Child Protection.
Have a look at [url]www.hse.gov.uk/risk/sensible.htm[/url] for the Health & Safety Executives perspective on risk management. A lot of the restrictions are more to do with Insurance and litigation.
robbiemeister said:
I thought the thread was about ECG's for drivers not old BMW's.
Some people cant wait to tell you what they drive.
Some people cant wait to tell you what they drive.
Yes, sorry, I thought you'd be really impressed by it, but in reality I guess I'm just compensating for my small dick.
For what it's worth my experience of the medicals is that they're fairly basic but does the right job, the eyesight test is basically to make sure people aren't red/green colour blind and that you can read/see. Whether heart scans are *really* necessary for older/international racers I'm not sure, having said that I'm not a medic so don't really have a valid opinion that.
The point of what I was saying, following on from Pete's comments is that there is a lot more to track safety than a healthy heart.
The problem with over regulating motorsport safety is that it removed a lot of personal responsibility to look after yourself...well the scrutineer didn't pick it up so it must be ok. I've had a car that in between getting a scrute sticker and going out on track I've finished bolting in the cage, actually put fluid in the brakes, and (although the guy did check) got my fire extinguisher working (the scrute said, its ok chap you're on a circuit, you don't really need a fire extinguisher). Now if someone who does take pride in their car and accepts personal responsibility for getting it right even though no-one will check, for example, how much pad lining i have left or such like, how many people will wing it through because they know they can get away with things and furthermore, take the risk that it won't happen to them. Sorry, I'm compensating again. Hope you understand what I'm trying to say, you can't live life just by blindly following the rule book.
Regards
Iain
robbiemeister said:
I thought the thread was about ECG's for drivers not old BMW's.
Some people cant wait to tell you what they drive.
Some people cant wait to tell you what they drive.
This is PH, threads go into tangents and to be fair, we were discussing the relative merits of ECG's for drivers when looking at 'recreative' motorsport safety as a whole.
I just thought exaggerating the low investment/skill + high speed issue wasn't too representative for what I've seen on track days, where you need very serious machinery to exceed 200 km/h on the main straight at Zandvoort (e.g. Evo IX 195 km/h, S2000 185 km/h, both with professional driver), there's a HUGE gravel trap on the outside of the Tarzan bend that you brake into, and 99.9% of trakday goers come in rather more modest machinery and if they do drive something exotic, they're bound to be a little more erm, tentative on 'mixed' club days.
For sure, out of 8-900 cars entering track sessions on a typical Zandvoort club day I've seen 3-4 smashes on average where the car gets totaled or pretty darn near, but:
1) I've seen no one getting hurt so far even though the vast majority of cars have no safety features other than those provided as OE and
2) In most, if not all those cases, the overwhelming consensus was that the driver involved had him/herself to blame for the accident solely.
And that's - apart from the Nordschleife whih shouldn't be regarded as a track at all IMO - is the worst I've seen oftrack days - fields of up to 80 cars sharing a 4.5 km track, ranging from total sheds that probably are going to flunk their next MOT to bike-engines Sevens and Mucielagos, with total novice drivers mixing it with seasoned license holders.
Based on that I'd say a modern, sensibly marshalled track is actually a pretty safe environment compared to the roads I have to navigate every day to get to work and back.
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