Briatore's got his boy Webber Renault engines for 2007
Discussion
If he couldn't fit his driver into a Renault I guess the next best thing is to make sure he gets Renault power in the Newey designed Red Bull.
Formula One could feature an all V8 grid next season, after Renault F1 boss Flavio Briatore all but confirmed that the Red Bull Racing team would be using a version of the regie's championship-leading engine from 2007.
There has been a lot of speculation in recent months suggesting that Christian Horner's squad was chasing Renault power for its Adrian Newey-designed RB4, but any deal appeared to have to clear the obstacle provided by the team's current deal with Ferrari. Speaking to Reuters, Briatore admitted that any deal would be between Renault and Red Bull - rather than its eponymous F1 team - but the paddock expects RBR to get the potent V8s, rather than the sister Scuderia Toro Rosso outfit. STR would then get RBR's current Ferrari deal, ending its use of the controversial Cosworth V10s it inherited when purchasing Minardi last season.
"We are in negotiations, but it's not done yet - 'done' meaning when you sign the deal," Briatore told the news agency, "We are working to finalise it this week and supply the engine to Red Bull. After that, it is a decision for [Dietrich] Mateschitz and Gerhard [Berger] to decide if it [goes to] Red Bull or Toro Rosso."
Whatever the outcome of those talks, the deal would be another blow for Cosworth, which recently saw its other 2006 partner, WilliamsF1, agree a deal with Toyota for the next three years. Should STR ditch its V10s, the British company would be left with no F1 deal, although it is understood to be in discussions with Midland/Spyker with regard to a deal for 2007. Midland, which was taken over by the Dutch Spyker marque at the weekend, will lose its current Toyota supply to WilliamsF1.
Renault's decision to supply a second team comes after many months of wrangling over how and why the manufacturers should help the smaller teams in the interests of F1's future. The regie's deal, should it come off, would see it join Toyota, Honda and Ferrari as dual suppliers, with only Mercedes and BMW currently refusing to join the party.
Renault has also been linked to the nascent Prodrive F1 effort, due to enter the top flight in 2008, but David Richards' concern has also been making noises about filling the McLaren B-team role previously pursued by Team Dubai and Direxiv. Should that come to fruition, Mercedes could also find itself supplying two teams. Spyker, meanwhile, is also rumoured to be talking to Ferrari about a supply of V8s that would tie in with the anticipated appearance of Italian engines in the next breed of Dutch supercar.
For Red Bull it's a good deal. No customer Ferrari engine has ever won a grand prix, customer Renault engines have.
crash.net said:
Formula One could feature an all V8 grid next season, after Renault F1 boss Flavio Briatore all but confirmed that the Red Bull Racing team would be using a version of the regie's championship-leading engine from 2007.
There has been a lot of speculation in recent months suggesting that Christian Horner's squad was chasing Renault power for its Adrian Newey-designed RB4, but any deal appeared to have to clear the obstacle provided by the team's current deal with Ferrari. Speaking to Reuters, Briatore admitted that any deal would be between Renault and Red Bull - rather than its eponymous F1 team - but the paddock expects RBR to get the potent V8s, rather than the sister Scuderia Toro Rosso outfit. STR would then get RBR's current Ferrari deal, ending its use of the controversial Cosworth V10s it inherited when purchasing Minardi last season.
"We are in negotiations, but it's not done yet - 'done' meaning when you sign the deal," Briatore told the news agency, "We are working to finalise it this week and supply the engine to Red Bull. After that, it is a decision for [Dietrich] Mateschitz and Gerhard [Berger] to decide if it [goes to] Red Bull or Toro Rosso."
Whatever the outcome of those talks, the deal would be another blow for Cosworth, which recently saw its other 2006 partner, WilliamsF1, agree a deal with Toyota for the next three years. Should STR ditch its V10s, the British company would be left with no F1 deal, although it is understood to be in discussions with Midland/Spyker with regard to a deal for 2007. Midland, which was taken over by the Dutch Spyker marque at the weekend, will lose its current Toyota supply to WilliamsF1.
Renault's decision to supply a second team comes after many months of wrangling over how and why the manufacturers should help the smaller teams in the interests of F1's future. The regie's deal, should it come off, would see it join Toyota, Honda and Ferrari as dual suppliers, with only Mercedes and BMW currently refusing to join the party.
Renault has also been linked to the nascent Prodrive F1 effort, due to enter the top flight in 2008, but David Richards' concern has also been making noises about filling the McLaren B-team role previously pursued by Team Dubai and Direxiv. Should that come to fruition, Mercedes could also find itself supplying two teams. Spyker, meanwhile, is also rumoured to be talking to Ferrari about a supply of V8s that would tie in with the anticipated appearance of Italian engines in the next breed of Dutch supercar.
For Red Bull it's a good deal. No customer Ferrari engine has ever won a grand prix, customer Renault engines have.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 12th September 10:43
FourWheelDrift said:
For Red Bull it's a good deal. No customer Ferrari engine has ever won a grand prix, customer Renault engines have.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 12th September 10:43
Have Renault engines ever powered both the factory team and customers together?..and if so, have the customer teams really beaten the factory?
1995 Williams were the official Renault customer team, but a certain Mr M Schumacher using customer Renault engines in the Benetton not only won races but also the championship.
1997 Williams still customer Renault power (Villeneuve winning races and the title) and Berger still won a race in a Benetton-Renault.
1998 - Renault pulled out and both teams became customers of the renamed engines Supertec & Playlife badged.
1997 Williams still customer Renault power (Villeneuve winning races and the title) and Berger still won a race in a Benetton-Renault.
1998 - Renault pulled out and both teams became customers of the renamed engines Supertec & Playlife badged.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 12th September 11:21
Once engine development is frozen (how will that work then?) presumably there is no reason for there to be any differences in spec?
On the other hand if the engine boys are pushing to get as much as possible before the freeze how reliable will the final generation engines be at the point of freeze?
On the other hand if the engine boys are pushing to get as much as possible before the freeze how reliable will the final generation engines be at the point of freeze?
FourWheelDrift said:
1995 Williams were the official Renault customer team, but a certain Mr M Schumacher using customer Renault engines in the Benetton not only won races but also the championship.
1997 Williams still customer Renault power (Villeneuve winning races and the title) and Berger still won a race in a Benetton-Renault.
1998 - Renault pulled out and both teams became customers of the renamed engines Supertec & Playlife badged.
1997 Williams still customer Renault power (Villeneuve winning races and the title) and Berger still won a race in a Benetton-Renault.
1998 - Renault pulled out and both teams became customers of the renamed engines Supertec & Playlife badged.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 12th September 11:21
Perhaps I should have clarified that - I was talking about Renault as a constructor. But given the above answer I totally see the point that was being made earlier. That ought to give any team the confidence that they will be dealt a fair hand by Renault.
Ah, when Renault were themselves a team in the early 80's?
Renault supplied Lotus, Tyrrell and Ligier with Turbo engines in 1985 as well as themselves of course, 1985 being Renault's last season as a constructor/engine builder until recently.
Senna driving a Lotus-Renault won at Estoril and team mate Elio deAngelis won at San Marino, the first 2 races of 1985. Senna also won the 1985 Belgian GP. Renault themselves could only manage 2 3rd places for Tambay. Even Renault powered Ligiers got better results than the Regie, managing to fill 2nd & 3rd on the podium behind Rosberg's Williams-Honda at the Australian GP that year, with a Tyrrell-Renault in 4th
Renault supplied Lotus, Tyrrell and Ligier with Turbo engines in 1985 as well as themselves of course, 1985 being Renault's last season as a constructor/engine builder until recently.
Senna driving a Lotus-Renault won at Estoril and team mate Elio deAngelis won at San Marino, the first 2 races of 1985. Senna also won the 1985 Belgian GP. Renault themselves could only manage 2 3rd places for Tambay. Even Renault powered Ligiers got better results than the Regie, managing to fill 2nd & 3rd on the podium behind Rosberg's Williams-Honda at the Australian GP that year, with a Tyrrell-Renault in 4th
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 12th September 14:32
It all gets a bit complicated doesn't it? I wonder why Toyota have decided to supply Williams instead of Jordan/Midland/Spyker. My naive logic tells me that they would have been better off sticking with a team that has little hope of challenging the factory team rather than Williams who are at roughly the same level as Toyota.
I also don't understand why Red Bull seem so keen to swap their Ferrari engines for Renaults. Ferrari's recent engines appear to have class leading power and they've certainly been reliable. The only thing I can imagine is that Red Bull think they're being supplied with watered down motors.
Do the teams like Midland and Red Bull pay the manufacturers for the engines? Also, do they have personnel from the manufacturers working with them at their own factories and at the GPs?
I also don't understand why Red Bull seem so keen to swap their Ferrari engines for Renaults. Ferrari's recent engines appear to have class leading power and they've certainly been reliable. The only thing I can imagine is that Red Bull think they're being supplied with watered down motors.
Do the teams like Midland and Red Bull pay the manufacturers for the engines? Also, do they have personnel from the manufacturers working with them at their own factories and at the GPs?
Edited by SamHH on Tuesday 12th September 14:56
SamHH said:
The only thing I can imagine is that Red Bull think they're being supplied with watered down motors.
From what I recall from the old Sauber contract with Ferrari they were getting engines 1 maybe 2 stages behind what Ferrari were running. I guess the Red Bull contract is a similar one. Used to be the case with most suppliers, Cosworth supplying Benetton with the best whilst McLaren got engines one step behind them in 1993 but that was purely down to a supply & demand problem I think as McLaren IIRC got better engines later in the season. I don't know what the situation is with Toyota and Honda both supplying engines to 2 teams this year but for them chasing success I can see it as being sense to provide both teams with identical power units to increase the technical data feedback with the limited testing allowed in F1. Ferrari, who have been a law unto themselves when it comes to testing could very easily run Badoer at Fiorano with a new engine and get testing miles and data on it ready to be put into Schumachers car, in chasing the title they wouldn't want another team to have the exactly the same power plant or latest secrets in case they were to pass them on to rivals.
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