Jackie Stewart
Discussion
www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=37747
Bitter old fart bemoaning the evil German's achievements, or valid point about how drivers of previous eras had to drive to the limit but not step over it on pain of... well, pain.
Personally, I'd say if you're going to speculate how Michael's driving would've gone down in the 70's, you have to look at the reverse. There is no question in my mind that Jackie would've done exactly the same as the current drivers vis "testing the water" in practice, had he been sure of a comparatively inconsequential bump into the tyre wall if he cocked things up.
JYS per Guardian article quoted on ITV F1.com said:
“He goes off the road during the course of most grand prix weekends – small off-track excursions as he probes the limit in either practice or qualifying.
“While you could say that he knows the corners on which he can stretch the elastic, so to speak, I just worry that this reflects a slight flaw in his all-round capability as a racing driver.”
Warming to a theme he has expounded several times before, JYS said the kind of harmless spins Schumacher indulges in as a matter of routine would have been punished by impacts with solid trackside objects in an earlier era.
“From a personal standpoint, it reminds me just how much things have changed since I was racing,” he said.
“Michael is of a generation of drivers who have benefited from very strong cars and inherently safer circuits than I experienced during my career.
“I can count on one hand the number of times I left the circuit during my career,” he added.
“While you could say that he knows the corners on which he can stretch the elastic, so to speak, I just worry that this reflects a slight flaw in his all-round capability as a racing driver.”
Warming to a theme he has expounded several times before, JYS said the kind of harmless spins Schumacher indulges in as a matter of routine would have been punished by impacts with solid trackside objects in an earlier era.
“From a personal standpoint, it reminds me just how much things have changed since I was racing,” he said.
“Michael is of a generation of drivers who have benefited from very strong cars and inherently safer circuits than I experienced during my career.
“I can count on one hand the number of times I left the circuit during my career,” he added.
Bitter old fart bemoaning the evil German's achievements, or valid point about how drivers of previous eras had to drive to the limit but not step over it on pain of... well, pain.
Personally, I'd say if you're going to speculate how Michael's driving would've gone down in the 70's, you have to look at the reverse. There is no question in my mind that Jackie would've done exactly the same as the current drivers vis "testing the water" in practice, had he been sure of a comparatively inconsequential bump into the tyre wall if he cocked things up.
stumartin said:
Bitter old fart bemoaning the evil German's achievements, or valid point about how drivers of previous eras had to drive to the limit but not step over it on pain of... well, pain. .
I think he's just pointing out that today drivers can push the limits more without fear of hurting themselves in an aluminium tube that will fold up like an origami chicken around the driver. Maybe in that respect Schumacher is smart, although other drivers push hard as well with less off track excursions, maybe Schuey has trouble knowing where the limit is.
The Last thing Jackie Stewart is is a bitter old fart.
This is the man who bought realistic levels of Safety yo Grand Prix racing. It always helps to see progress by looking at current levels with retrospect. From the part quoted, JYS is poiniting out how MS would use practice to find the limit, something in his day couldn't really be done as if you wern't on the limit you wern't going fast enough.
This is the man who bought realistic levels of Safety yo Grand Prix racing. It always helps to see progress by looking at current levels with retrospect. From the part quoted, JYS is poiniting out how MS would use practice to find the limit, something in his day couldn't really be done as if you wern't on the limit you wern't going fast enough.
FourWheelDrift said:
I think he's just pointing out that today drivers can push the limits more without fear of hurting themselves in an aluminium tube that will fold up like an origami chicken around the driver. Maybe in that respect Schumacher is smart, although other drivers push hard as well with less off track excursions, maybe Schuey has trouble knowing where the limit is.
And it's a good point. However, whilst Schumacher might have a sneaky spin or two in practice (or Monaco qualifying) he very rarely does any significant damage to the car, unlike many other drivers. Yet, he has achieved the aim of finding the absolute limit.
This may be because he knows that if he does overcook things the impact is unlikely to really hurt him, or... it may not, because if he risks a big crash, that's going to penalise him heavily on the grid, maybe in the race, and potentially the championship. Not quite the same incentive as not burning to death of course, but it's still a point that I would think Schumacher has considered - unlike the likes of Jacques Villeneuve for example.
motco said:
Jim Clark is quoted (in the 'extras' with the 'Grand Prix' DVD) as saying that if you make a mistake and you recover it you cannot be driving at the limit. 'On the limit' means ANY error is an 'off'
and by definition in Clarks day any mistake made ""on the limit"" could result in a serious accident. probably fatal
in todays era safer conditions allow for greater flexability because the probability of injury has decreased .
take Bandinis crash at monaco in 67 as an example . he payed the ultimate price. do the same today and the chances are he would have walked back to the pits .
for my money..liked Schumackers / Ferrari achievement great driver , but never really forgave him for taking Hill out or Villeneruve / or Monaco practice this year all of these incidents show desperation to win at any costs .
Edited by DBSV8 on Wednesday 18th October 17:19
I've yet to read a reason why JYS isn't regarded as the best of all time. I've never ever seen him as no.1 on the lists of the best, but he must have been a contender, surely?
I enjoyed his quote about the nurburgring, which went something like: "I never drove one more lap than I had to. Anyone who says he likes the nurburgring is either a fool or can't drive fast enough."
I enjoyed his quote about the nurburgring, which went something like: "I never drove one more lap than I had to. Anyone who says he likes the nurburgring is either a fool or can't drive fast enough."
heebeegeetee said:
I've yet to read a reason why JYS isn't regarded as the best of all time. I've never ever seen him as no.1 on the lists of the best, but he must have been a contender, surely?
I enjoyed his quote about the nurburgring, which went something like: "I never drove one more lap than I had to. Anyone who says he likes the nurburgring is either a fool or can't drive fast enough."
I enjoyed his quote about the nurburgring, which went something like: "I never drove one more lap than I had to. Anyone who says he likes the nurburgring is either a fool or can't drive fast enough."
Another remark of his, which I found particularly poignant, recalled how he would have a last lingering look at his home before setting off to the 'Ring, acknowledging that he may not return.
Having been a few times myself, the place still seems to resonate with the memories of those historic races. I still like it - guess I fit both of JYS's characterisations.
WilliBetz
Well count me in as being an old fart too, as I don't understand the modern stuff where in the name of finding the limit, youngsters need to exceed it. Prevelent at track days too, which I thoroughly disapprove of.
Along with reving the bolloocks off a cold engine or transmission, there are a few things re modern circuit work that strikes me as edging towards gormless.
As Stewart will tell you, so much of it is in the mind. Are you 'listening'? Have you developed that skill?
Did you know that when he won his F1 world championships for Ken Tyrrell, they had no written contract between them?
Along with reving the bolloocks off a cold engine or transmission, there are a few things re modern circuit work that strikes me as edging towards gormless.
As Stewart will tell you, so much of it is in the mind. Are you 'listening'? Have you developed that skill?
Did you know that when he won his F1 world championships for Ken Tyrrell, they had no written contract between them?
Edited by ph123 on Wednesday 18th October 18:50
ph123 said:
Did you know that when he won his F1 world championships for Ken Tyrrell, they had no written contract between them?
Edited by ph123 on Wednesday 18th October 18:50
i know, but its all part of a bygone era. I bet JYS entered into plenty of contracts with drivers who drove for him.
And I definitely dont drive fast enough at the ring.
ph123 said:
Well count me in as being an old fart too, as I don't understand the modern stuff where in the name of finding the limit, youngsters need to exceed it. Prevelent at track days too, which I thoroughly disapprove of.
I'm confused, exactly how do you find the limit without stepping over it? Or do you have some sort of psychic connection with the car that I don't?
As for the JYS comment...in 'bygone' days (certainly JYS's era), the limits of F1 cars were more malleable than now. Current (last 20yrs?) F1 cars have had grip levels so high that any loss of grip results in a rapid change in attitude and a tricky recovery. Whereas look back 30/40 years and the limits were lower and hence more progressive...you regularly saw cars cornering with a few degrees of oversteer dialled in...try that with a modern F3 car, let alone an F1 car!!!
As a result, and dare I say it (without criticising Stewart, Clark et.al.), it was easier in the past to keep the car on-circuit if you breached it's limits. Although Clark may have been talking about a different sort of 'limit' to the ones I understand.
havoc said:
I'm confused, exactly how do you find the limit without stepping over it?
.
All explained here by the great man himself
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah_FbT25K1Q
enjoy
DBSV8 said:
havoc said:
I'm confused, exactly how do you find the limit without stepping over it?
.
All explained here by the great man himself
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah_FbT25K1Q
enjoy
It's a wonderful sight. However the great man himself was prone to a few spins in practice; testing the absolute limits to find the best lines. I have a vague memory (which may be rubbish) that Senna stuffed his car into the wall at Magny Cours one year at the end of his pole position lap, by taking the final corner far too fast but crossing the line before he crashed.
In any event, times had changed way before Schumacher, and JYS' complaints may be levelled at Senna as much as anyone else.
This does sound a touch uncharitable, but then it's open season on Schumi - they're all lining up for a pop.
Such unedifying outbursts aside, and if I can for a moment think of the blue Tyrrell rather than old tartan flatcap behind the wheel of a sierra with a tennis ball in a fruitbowl on the bonnet...I do think of JYS as a great man, certainly.
Such unedifying outbursts aside, and if I can for a moment think of the blue Tyrrell rather than old tartan flatcap behind the wheel of a sierra with a tennis ball in a fruitbowl on the bonnet...I do think of JYS as a great man, certainly.
havoc said:
[quote=ph123]Well count me in as being an old fart too, as I don't understand the modern stuff where in the name of finding the limit, youngsters need to exceed it. Prevelent at track days too, which I thoroughly disapprove of.
I'm confused, exactly how do you find the limit without stepping over it? Or do you have some sort of psychic connection with the car that I don't?
Well I'm not an old fart 25 to be precise and I agree there is no need to overstep the limit to find it if you have sufficiant talant you should be able to drive right up to the limit withoout ever going over it.
People on trackdays who spin are just running out of talant not the ultimate grip of the car.
Case in point is me and the old man we sprint a westfield I am on average 6 seconds faster than him where ever we go he has spun at every venue I am yet to spin!
Schumi spins etc because he makes mistakes while pressing on in prctice to say he deliberatly does it to see where the grip is is bull.
Rob
bertrum said:
havoc said:
[quote=ph123]Well count me in as being an old fart too, as I don't understand the modern stuff where in the name of finding the limit, youngsters need to exceed it. Prevelent at track days too, which I thoroughly disapprove of.
I'm confused, exactly how do you find the limit without stepping over it? Or do you have some sort of psychic connection with the car that I don't?...
Schumi spins etc because he makes mistakes while pressing on in prctice to say he deliberatly does it to see where the grip is is bull.
Anyhow, isn't the point that you can get the tyres to go from slipping to sliding without necessarily inducing an irretrievable loss of control.
Pick spots on the circuit where you've got a surplus of room to make adjustments; if the front begins to slide you straighten the wheel and ease off the throttle before you understeer off, if the rear begins to slide you countersteer before you spin, etc.
flemke said:
Anyhow, isn't the point that you can get the tyres to go from slipping to sliding without necessarily inducing an irretrievable loss of control.
Pick spots on the circuit where you've got a surplus of room to make adjustments; if the front begins to slide you straighten the wheel and ease off the throttle before you understeer off, if the rear begins to slide you countersteer before you spin, etc.
Precisely my point.
Any time where the tyres lose traction and start sliding is 'over the limit'. I have done that plenty of times in order to better understand where the limit is and what messages the car conveys as it approaches the limit.
I for one am not good enough to 'find the limit' without breaching it, and I doubt those on here who claim they can are either...they're just not trying hard enough! Rob, I'm guessing you've misunderstood the subject under discussion.
The I'm confused bit was aquote from Havoc.
Sliding a car to a small degree be it under or oversteer is not over the limit. Over the limit is when grip is lost totally that results in an off (ie grip cannot be regained). As Schumi does.
Anyone can drive a car up to the point it starts to slide if you want to go really quick the car will be moving around all the time but your not over the limit yet. But this is the point where peoples talant comes into play and invaribly runs out resulting in an off/spin. Also for the more talented at this point a small error/misjudgement will result in total un retrivable loss of control. Which is what Jackie Stewart is referring to.
Rob
"On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit'. And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high."
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