Discussion
A question to any of you drivers/scrutineers in the know. We are about to have Mickeys Holden's sponsors name embroidered to his race suit for next year, this will mean that the stitching will go through the inner fire proof part of the suit, do you know if this is ok to do so and will pass scrutineering?
and not in the same direction as the rest of us...John,
Options are to have badges stitched into the outer layer of the suit only or have the badges embroidered during manufacture. Be careful if you go for the first option though, the stitching must be of approved fireproof nomex material, although I'm not sure how scrutineering confirm this on race day, mostly they just look for the FIA badge on the inside.
Check the blue book to confirm this to be the case.
Mark
Options are to have badges stitched into the outer layer of the suit only or have the badges embroidered during manufacture. Be careful if you go for the first option though, the stitching must be of approved fireproof nomex material, although I'm not sure how scrutineering confirm this on race day, mostly they just look for the FIA badge on the inside.
Check the blue book to confirm this to be the case.
Mark
You can't embroider or stitch through all layers of the suit, irrespective of the thread used. If the scrute sees thread visible on the inside of the suit he will not pass you.
So as Mark says, you either get embroidery done on the outer panels, using nomex thread, as part of the manufacturing process of the suit, or you have embroidered badges made and stitch them onto the outer layer of the suit by hand.
The blue book says the badges need to have a flame proof backing and be stitched on with nomex thread. In practice most of us just have normal badges and sew them on carefully with cotton, making sure that the stitching only goes through the first layer.
So as Mark says, you either get embroidery done on the outer panels, using nomex thread, as part of the manufacturing process of the suit, or you have embroidered badges made and stitch them onto the outer layer of the suit by hand.
The blue book says the badges need to have a flame proof backing and be stitched on with nomex thread. In practice most of us just have normal badges and sew them on carefully with cotton, making sure that the stitching only goes through the first layer.
No.25 said:
teamHOLDENracing said:
In practice most of us just have normal badges and sew them on carefully with cotton, making sure that the stitching only goes through the first layer.
!!!! ANDY!!! <LOL> at the end of the day I cant believe that if i'd escaped from a burning car, and all i had to show from it was a stiching pattern burned into me I'd be that bothered...
more of a trophey than anything else.... quick tip, dont get into a scar competition with dave reynolds ( ex taz racer) he was also a scuba diver and has been bitten by a shark !!!! we're not worthy....
having said all that i have about 4 badges that are supposed to have been sewn onto my suit sat in the glove box of the transit
No.25 said:
teamHOLDENracing said:
In practice most of us just have normal badges and sew them on carefully with cotton, making sure that the stitching only goes through the first layer.
!!!! ANDY!!! .... a bit of an over reaction!
You'll find that in certain series as part of the regs you are required to have badges on your suit. To give an example of a recently departed series, the TVR Tuscan Challenge: Dunlop, Mintex and Carlube.
They were small woven badges made from conventional materials. Would you refuse to wear them, or would you compromise and sew them on just through the outer layer of the suit?
Yes they would catch fire in the event of you being trapped in a burning car. Yes they would compromise the fire protection of the suit in those very localised areas. Would it kill you? I doubt it - I suspect your lungs would be frazzled long before you were in serious trouble from the small burning badges sewn onto your suit.
Out of interest, do you wear a watch, necklace, wedding ring etc whilst racing? A wedding ring will conduct heat straight into a very concetrated area in a fire and could make the difference between keeping and losing a finger.
The Tuscan fuel tank and filler are appallingly designed and fires are I'm afraid more regular than they ought to be. In an accident the fuel filler can be pulled off and there is no roll over valve. This happened to Steve Glynn at Oulton last year.
I am putting a 70 litre tank in my Sag. The idea of that much fuel in a rigid ali tank, inside a closed car with me, next to the exhaust and the electrics, worries me. So much so I have spent a lot of money on a flexible FIA fuel cell 'bladder'.
Like all things there are things which make a big difference and things which make a small difference to safety. I'll take my chances with the badges...
Thanks Mark & Graham for your valued input but most of all I must thank Andy for his valued input and the most wonderful insight into being set on fire and having your lungs frazzled in the cockpit of a race car, 70 litre Sag fuel tanks with FIA bladders!! and what dose Graham wear under his race suit? Is it time to come out of the closet Graham. lol, Cheers lads you have answered my question. Johnny G Star.
Edited by johnnytvr on Thursday 19th October 17:23
Graham said:
No.25 said:
teamHOLDENracing said:
In practice most of us just have normal badges and sew them on carefully with cotton, making sure that the stitching only goes through the first layer.
!!!! ANDY!!! <LOL> at the end of the day I cant believe that if i'd escaped from a burning car, and all i had to show from it was a stiching pattern burned into me I'd be that bothered...
more of a trophey than anything else.... quick tip, dont get into a scar competition with dave reynolds ( ex taz racer) he was also a scuba diver and has been bitten by a shark !!!!
Show me a TVR owner that hasn't been bitten by a shark...
heightswitch said:
John.
talk to Reidy. He has a deal with jays who can stitch all your badges on for you as part of the suit manufacturing process??
Neil.
talk to Reidy. He has a deal with jays who can stitch all your badges on for you as part of the suit manufacturing process??
Neil.
I suspect that Mikey already has a racesuit and no particular desire to fork out for a another, so its badges or now't.
John, if the logos are big then contact someone like Jays or Grand Prix Racewear, as I think they will be able to get badges embroidered with nomex which can then be stitched on. If the logos are small then I wouldn't worry too much, there are bigger threats to safety....
teamHOLDENracing said:
The Tuscan fuel tank and filler are appallingly designed and fires are I'm afraid more regular than they ought to be. In an accident the fuel filler can be pulled off and there is no roll over valve. This happened to Steve Glynn at Oulton last year.
I am putting a 70 litre tank in my Sag. The idea of that much fuel in a rigid ali tank, inside a closed car with me, next to the exhaust and the electrics, worries me. So much so I have spent a lot of money on a flexible FIA fuel cell 'bladder'.
Like all things there are things which make a big difference and things which make a small difference to safety. I'll take my chances with the badges...
And that reinforces the message given to all marshals - take a bottle to all incidents... you never know if something cracked in the impact, and theres fuel dripping on a hot component...
BTW... wheres the isolation switch and extingisher toggles for our use? is there any?
lord summerisle said:
And that reinforces the message given to all marshals - take a bottle to all incidents... you never know if something cracked in the impact, and theres fuel dripping on a hot component...
BTW... wheres the isolation switch and extingisher toggles for our use? is there any?
On a Tuscan they are usually on the tonneau cover over the passenger area, although some have them in a recess on the side of the car behind the nearside front wheel.
On the two Sags built so far they are on the near side rear quarterlight. Have not decided where to put them on mine yet - think I might go for front scuttle under the windscreen as I think that is where most closed top cars have them and where a marshal would look first? Any thoughts....?
below the windscreen is good. as we can easily see/get to them - personally - i'll either try and get a wander round the paddock the night before if i'm there, or in the morning on the way to post - just to give me chance to familiarise myself with the locations. and also during the first few laps of the race, so if they are easily seen at the front of the car, the better.
Tho also consider i suppose - your own ease of operating them, the marshals will be arriving with their own bottles, and if a car is alight, or ignights - the options are - use our bottles, or if possible your on board bottle - as that should direct the stuff to where its most needed...tho of course - if your trapped inside and we are still a-running - you'll want some way of using your system.
i suppose - take cuer from the caterham lads - they have the isolations switch at the bottom of the screen on the drivers side, and the extingisher pos. on the dash above the grear stick so they or a marshal can reach it.
Dont know if you've needed our services yet, but those more experianced than me that i have worked with at Oulton tend to go along the lines of.. "are you ok? is the electrics off?" it does help us get an idea of how compas mentis you are
Tho also consider i suppose - your own ease of operating them, the marshals will be arriving with their own bottles, and if a car is alight, or ignights - the options are - use our bottles, or if possible your on board bottle - as that should direct the stuff to where its most needed...tho of course - if your trapped inside and we are still a-running - you'll want some way of using your system.
i suppose - take cuer from the caterham lads - they have the isolations switch at the bottom of the screen on the drivers side, and the extingisher pos. on the dash above the grear stick so they or a marshal can reach it.
Dont know if you've needed our services yet, but those more experianced than me that i have worked with at Oulton tend to go along the lines of.. "are you ok? is the electrics off?" it does help us get an idea of how compas mentis you are
lord summerisle said:
Tho also consider i suppose - your own ease of operating them, the marshals will be arriving with their own bottles, and if a car is alight, or ignights - the options are - use our bottles, or if possible your on board bottle - as that should direct the stuff to where its most needed...tho of course - if your trapped inside and we are still a-running - you'll want some way of using your system.
i suppose - take cuer from the caterham lads - they have the isolations switch at the bottom of the screen on the drivers side, and the extingisher pos. on the dash above the grear stick so they or a marshal can reach it.
Dont know if you've needed our services yet, but those more experianced than me that i have worked with at Oulton tend to go along the lines of.. "are you ok? is the electrics off?" it does help us get an idea of how compas mentis you are
On an open top car the temptation is to have a single isolator and extinguisher pull which can be reached and operated by both the seated driver and a marshal - hence the tonneau cover position.
On the Sag I will have electronic systems for the extinguisher and cut out, so will have buttons for both inside the car and outside, and can put the outside ones wherever is best.
And yes, I have made use of your colleagues services.... Castle Combe in 2003, Donington, Knockhill and Oulton in 2004. At Donington I even got a ride back in the rescue vehicle mid race.... not strictly necessary, but after I hit the wall I did a mental 'oh no' and let my head drop onto my chest, then I struggled with the isolator and to cap it all stumbled on a bit of loose rubble getting out of the car, by which time the marshal had decided I needed urgent assistance! I think it was the head dropping which concerned him the most, and fair enough, it was good he thought it best not to take arisk. Mind you, that's the last time I put myself off to avoid a spinning Dowling
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