Autocar article: Is Schuey the Greatest?
Discussion
Article in this weeks mag with 9 opinions from a mix of F1 World Champions, F1 drivers and people in F1.
5 said "No" - Moss, Stewart, Hill, Brundle, Blundell
3 said "Yes based on the statistics" - Lauda, Scheckter and Williams
1 said he admired him - Phillips, ex Jordan commercial manager
Certainly not a resounding endorsement from guys who know a lot more about F1 than even some of the guys on this forum
5 said "No" - Moss, Stewart, Hill, Brundle, Blundell
3 said "Yes based on the statistics" - Lauda, Scheckter and Williams
1 said he admired him - Phillips, ex Jordan commercial manager
Certainly not a resounding endorsement from guys who know a lot more about F1 than even some of the guys on this forum
festernath said:
Are former drivers the best judge of someone who has achieved vastly more than they?
Following your logic, then no golfer should ever be allowed to comment on Tiger Woods, no tennis player should comment on Roger Federer, etc.
Think I have to disagree with you on this one.
MS achieved great things statistically by sticking around a long time and consistently being very fast, but I don't think his win rate was as high as some other drivers.
I think the top win rates were:
Fangio 47%
Alberto Ascari 41%
Schuey 36%
Jim Clark 35%
Jackie Stewart 27%
Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost 25%
Stirling Moss 24%
festernath said:
Are former drivers the best judge of someone who has achieved vastly more than they?
Also, if you looked at how many retirements from Grand Prix's and how many Sportscar wins Stirling Moss had, that might make you rethink...
As for some of the others on the list though
Personally, I think the "best driver of all time" thing is a bit academic anyway.
It's been said many a time but you can't really compare drivers from different eras anyway. I know "fast is fast whatever" but where Schummacher excelled was in the way he built the team around him. How would he have coped in the 70s and 80s when it was much more a case of "here's your car - go race!"?
It's a bit like saying "which was the best girl/fella you've ever slept with?" They're all good - just different.
It's been said many a time but you can't really compare drivers from different eras anyway. I know "fast is fast whatever" but where Schummacher excelled was in the way he built the team around him. How would he have coped in the 70s and 80s when it was much more a case of "here's your car - go race!"?
It's a bit like saying "which was the best girl/fella you've ever slept with?" They're all good - just different.
AlexRWD said:
Andy M said:
Ask them again in 10-15 years time once nostalgia has had time to set in, and I'm sure the answer will be different 
Yeah, Lauda Scheckter and Williams will have come to their senses by then
Yeh, and let's not forget who Lauda and Scheckter had their biggest success with... definitely a case of Ferrari red tinted glasses!
I was reading about Graham Hill the other day and how he used to race nearly every weekend all year round, going down to Australia during the European winter.... remember him, double world champion, five time Monaco winner and the only guy to do the Grand Slam of motor racing.
Then there was Surtees, the only world champion on bikes and in cars.
Let's not forget to mention Clark whilst we're on the subject of 60s greats.... the man who won races for fun, be it F1, F2, saloon cars.... you name it, he drove it.... he was a driving God!!
Add to that Stewart and Moss, and you have five British champions that would have more than matched Schumacher had they raced in the same era.
Had Schumacher been a few years older and raced against Mansell, Senna and Prost.. How good would his record have been?? As for his "amazing" car control when that tyre went the other day... I'm sorry, but it's not even worth a mention when compared to Mansell in 1986.
The nintendo drivers of today don't know they've been born!!!
AlexRWD said:
5 said "No" - Moss, Stewart, Hill, Brundle, Blundell
I have heard or read all them say he is the greatest and would be quite easy to find quotes.. here is one from today.
Moss said:
Although the situation was difficult for him, with Fernando Alonso ten points clear and only needing a scoring finish to secure the title, I think Michael Schumacher did everything he could to make a fight of it, despite the odds being stacked further against him with that puncture. He just showed how brilliant he is, and how he deserves to be where he is, regarded as one of the best drivers in the history of the sport.
www.crash.net/feature_View~t~Moss-on-Brazil-~cid~1~id~10383.htm
Moss said:
Although the situation was difficult for him, with Fernando Alonso ten points clear and only needing a scoring finish to secure the title, I think Michael Schumacher did everything he could to make a fight of it, despite the odds being stacked further against him with that puncture. He just showed how brilliant he is, and how he deserves to be where he is, regarded as one of the best drivers in the history of the sport.
My bold.
That's a very different position than being the greatest IMHO.
Phil
I could trawl the net and find the comments but I am just pointing out that their opinions change week to week and its an impossible comparison to make between era's i.e one of the best
also take D Hill's comments with an pinch of salt positive or negative..
also take D Hill's comments with an pinch of salt positive or negative..
Edited by TonyToniTone on Friday 27th October 20:54
TonyToniTone said:
I could trawl the net and find the comments but I am just pointing out that their opinions change week to week and its an impossible comparison to make between era's i.e one of the best
also take D Hill's comments with an pinch of salt positive or negative..
also take D Hill's comments with an pinch of salt positive or negative..
Edited by TonyToniTone on Friday 27th October 20:54
Why?
fozzi said:
TonyToniTone said:
I could trawl the net and find the comments but I am just pointing out that their opinions change week to week and its an impossible comparison to make between era's i.e one of the best
also take D Hill's comments with an pinch of salt positive or negative..
also take D Hill's comments with an pinch of salt positive or negative..
Edited by TonyToniTone on Friday 27th October 20:54
Why?
lost a lot of respect for mr Hill, after his opiniated comments regarding Sennas crash
His comments about Schumacher came across as sour grapes
and the way his motivation waned at Jordan in 99.
Phil Dicky said:
Had it not been for the incident with Hill in Australia, when he obviously just ran into him, then I would say defo the one of the best....
Do you know what? I firmly believe that were Schumacher English/British, we as a nation would have a 100% totally opposite viewpoint of that incident.
AlexRWD said:
I think the top win rates were:
Fangio 47%
Alberto Ascari 41%
Schuey 36%
Jim Clark 35%
Jackie Stewart 27%
Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost 25%
Stirling Moss 24%
These are rates for F1 races, I believe. Bear in mind that the 'older' drivers were racing something or other every weekend. In that light Mosses rate is much higher but forget the figure now. I believe his podium rate was something like 65%.
We were discussing Schumi in the pub t'other night, and we did come up with this: I was impressed by one picture I'd seen - a very ordinary pic - of Schumacher at a test session standing amongst all the boffins as streams of data from the car was being analysed. Now I reckon Schumacher had a handle on all that stuff, ie he can talk to the boffins and they could all relate to each other all the different and important aspects of the cars performance. I reckon Schumacher had a handle on everything that went into making that car competitive, from being able to converse at the highest level with Todt and Brawn, to being nice to the floor sweepers back at Maranello. Not only that, but I believe that there would be tremendous two-way respect between Schumacher and each and every member of what I've read is a 750 strong 'team'. In other words, everybody is puting 100% effort into the project, and of course they know that when their driver is on track they know that practically nobody else out there is putting the effort in to achieve the best possible result.
Now, we don't know that our heroes of the past could have done likewise, indeed Moss for instance (a hero of mine) would have had difficulties in that area. It wasn't really the done thing back then. (Read Racing mechanic by Alf Francis to learn hw those people were treated - exploited - back then). In the old days it would be literaly a couple of trucks, a few mechanics and a few cantilever tool boxes. OK, thast might sound a bit unfair, but I reckon that was the nub of it. A driver back then literally needed little more than his natural talent. There wasn't the need to work hard in all sorts of other areas. Indeed, many Brit drivers lived abroad, to avoid taxes and national service (which i don't blame them for) and also to have an easier life away from the media.
However, **on the other hand**. The drivers of the past stared death in the face every time they got in the car, and when Stewart made the first efforts to change that he got roasted and lambasted by all and sundry. Not that that stopped him. Obviously, Schumacher did not have to risk his life greatly too often. (Although it could be said that he was at race meeting, Imola 94, when 2 drivers died). But on the whole it still stands. Motorsport is immeasurably safer than it was before, and none the worse for it.
fozzi said:
Yeh, and let's not forget who Lauda and Scheckter had their biggest success with... definitely a case of Ferrari red tinted glasses!
But they also are the only ones on that list who get good insight from within the Ferrari team about what schumacher is really like. They're probably the only ones with the true picture.
As I've posted before, Schumacher has been in F1 for 16 years and as a person we hardly know him, which is why I laugh when people describe him as arrogant.
I don’t think it can ever be said that Schumacher is the best ever, that’s clearly not true, buy by gum he’s right up there with them. I certainly believe he’s worked harder than anybody else in the history of F1, and possibly had the greatest desire to win than anybody else. His achievements are absolutely tremendous.
(I read recently that of his 16 years in F1, he’s won a race in 15 of them. If true, that is absolutely amazing.)
Edited by heebeegeetee on Saturday 28th October 07:59
OK. Schumacher and Senna. Same car. Same track.
Who wins?
This current format of processional racing suited Ferrari and Schumacher down to the ground. Race strategy rather than racing was the key and you could avoid having to overtake on the track by doing it in the pits. ALl very clever, but not racing. Not their fault, the governing body's, but we'll never know exactly how much of a pure "racer" Schumacher truly was/is.
In the current format the team he has made may allow him to just about keep up. In proper balls out racing Senna would destroy him. I'm sorry, but in my opinion it's as black and white as that.
Who wins?
This current format of processional racing suited Ferrari and Schumacher down to the ground. Race strategy rather than racing was the key and you could avoid having to overtake on the track by doing it in the pits. ALl very clever, but not racing. Not their fault, the governing body's, but we'll never know exactly how much of a pure "racer" Schumacher truly was/is.
In the current format the team he has made may allow him to just about keep up. In proper balls out racing Senna would destroy him. I'm sorry, but in my opinion it's as black and white as that.
Edited by ferrisbueller on Saturday 28th October 08:28
Let's face it, people are always going to have a difference of opinion on these matters, because what constitutes the greatest to one person may require a different set of criteria to someone else's viewpoint.
In the mid 80s to early 90s, Senna was regarded the ultimate racer, Prost the smooth technician - the professor, Mansell the lion hearted charger... all three great champions who undoubtedly took races and titles off each other. At the end of their time, they were the three most successful drivers in F1 history in terms of championship races won, pole positions etc. In the decade or so since, Schumacher had rivals, but none has endured or shown the intense passion that these three predecessors had shown; Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen all came and went, Coulthard, Montoya and Raikkonnen all flattered to decieve.... only now with Alonso does there appear to be that genuine long term threat. From 1994-2004, he was allowed to dominate the scene, in no small part this was due to his ruthless determination to succeed and the technical expertise in the Ferrari camp.
Schumacher has elements of Senna, Prost and Mansell in his character and driving style; technically provicient, hard charging and ruthless, but I suspect that if he had raced at the same time as his predecessors, his record would not nearly be as good. Yes, he would have competed with these guys, no question about that, but there is no way in the world that he would have dominated the scene in the manner that he has.
Let's not also forget that his team mates were in the main part subservient lackies, whereas his predecessors were often teamed together with their main rivals and/or former world champions; Mansell with Piquet at Williams and then Prost at Ferrari, Prost with Lauda and Rosberg at McLaren... and how could anyone forget Senna and Prost at McLaren.
Schumacher was a great driver and incredibly successful.... but the greatest?
In the mid 80s to early 90s, Senna was regarded the ultimate racer, Prost the smooth technician - the professor, Mansell the lion hearted charger... all three great champions who undoubtedly took races and titles off each other. At the end of their time, they were the three most successful drivers in F1 history in terms of championship races won, pole positions etc. In the decade or so since, Schumacher had rivals, but none has endured or shown the intense passion that these three predecessors had shown; Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen all came and went, Coulthard, Montoya and Raikkonnen all flattered to decieve.... only now with Alonso does there appear to be that genuine long term threat. From 1994-2004, he was allowed to dominate the scene, in no small part this was due to his ruthless determination to succeed and the technical expertise in the Ferrari camp.
Schumacher has elements of Senna, Prost and Mansell in his character and driving style; technically provicient, hard charging and ruthless, but I suspect that if he had raced at the same time as his predecessors, his record would not nearly be as good. Yes, he would have competed with these guys, no question about that, but there is no way in the world that he would have dominated the scene in the manner that he has.
Let's not also forget that his team mates were in the main part subservient lackies, whereas his predecessors were often teamed together with their main rivals and/or former world champions; Mansell with Piquet at Williams and then Prost at Ferrari, Prost with Lauda and Rosberg at McLaren... and how could anyone forget Senna and Prost at McLaren.
Schumacher was a great driver and incredibly successful.... but the greatest?
ferrisbueller said:
OK. Schumacher and Senna. Same car. Same track.
Who wins?
This current format of processional racing suited Ferrari and Schumacher down to the ground. Race strategy rather than racing was the key and you could avoid having to overtake on the track by doing it in the pits. ALl very clever, but not racing. Not their fault, the governing body's, but we'll never know exactly how much of a pure "racer" Schumacher truly was/is.
In the current format the team he has made may allow him to just about keep up. In proper balls out racing Senna would destroy him. I'm sorry, but in my opinion it's as black and white as that.
Who wins?
This current format of processional racing suited Ferrari and Schumacher down to the ground. Race strategy rather than racing was the key and you could avoid having to overtake on the track by doing it in the pits. ALl very clever, but not racing. Not their fault, the governing body's, but we'll never know exactly how much of a pure "racer" Schumacher truly was/is.
In the current format the team he has made may allow him to just about keep up. In proper balls out racing Senna would destroy him. I'm sorry, but in my opinion it's as black and white as that.
Edited by ferrisbueller on Saturday 28th October 08:28
Whatever the rules, the best win. Whether its slicks or grovved, tc or not, active ride or not, pitstops or not, fuel restrictions or not, wings, planks, whatever engine capacity, whatever you want, the best still win. If Schumacher and Brawn maximised strategy, they only did so because they were the best. Senna would have done the same.
Schumachers record would not be quite so stratospheric if Senna not died, but likewise, Sennas record would be much better had there been no Prost.
In '94 of course, it was 3-0 to Schumacher. But boy, weren't we robbed of a couple of seasons of fireworks?
But in '94 Senna wasn't destroying Schumacher.
(Maybe Schumachers car wasn't strictly legal, who knows, but then again Benneton did not have the resources of Williams so perhaps the cars were fairly equal).
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