The arrogance of F1 teams?
Discussion
Possibly not quite what people were expecting from the topic title. But I went for an interview at Honda Racing F1 yesterday. And was frankly appalled at the attitude displayed and the expectations.
Note that this was for a Finance role, not engineering, manufacture, or sharp-end stuff. And I would say in advance I suspect the culture may well be different for those working directly on the cars or improving them.
But:-
- It was made quite clear to me that Finance are 2nd-class citizens there (as I suspect are HR, IT, Purchasing etc.).
- I would not be required to 'think outside the box', to try and suggest any commercial improvements
(Apparently the team principal gives Finance the grand sum of 20mins of his time a month! Wowee!!!)
- Prospects are negligible. Essentially waiting for the FC to get bored/move on. No other opportunity for progression or advancement.
- Despite the lack of any rewards in terms of challenge/promotion prospects/ability to feel like you're making a difference, the salary offered was pretty mediocre.
- Because the finance team is so small (5 people, about 1/4 the size I would expect for the estimated turnover and complexity of the organisation), everyone has to 'muck in' and do data-entry such as loading Purchase Invoices onto the system (direct quote!)...this is like asking a qualified doctor to change bedsheets in a hospital - a complete waste of time and resource. Yet the FC felt they didn't need anyone else in the team, despite HIM having to do this and all of them working weekends!
In short, I got the impression they were looking for someone who would be 'grateful' to work for an F1 team, to put in stupid hours 'for the team' with no prospect of reward/advancement for them, and not to question or try and improve what was done - "JFDI".
On top of that, they made it clear they had no loyalty to Honda, as they felt Honda may well in a few years show no loyalty to them and sell them on. Got the distinct impression they new s*d-all about Honda's motorsport heritage (most active mfr in motorsport overall and have been contributing to BAR since 1999 or 2000).
ARROGANT CONCEITED SHORT-SIGHTED TW@TS 
Edit: This isn't sour-grapes. I've not had any feedback yet, think I did quite well.
Note that this was for a Finance role, not engineering, manufacture, or sharp-end stuff. And I would say in advance I suspect the culture may well be different for those working directly on the cars or improving them.
But:-
- It was made quite clear to me that Finance are 2nd-class citizens there (as I suspect are HR, IT, Purchasing etc.).
- I would not be required to 'think outside the box', to try and suggest any commercial improvements
FC said:
we don't need to make a profit here. People who've come in with commercial ideas haven't fitted in!
. I would only be needed to do the accounts and sit there. This is short-sighted in the extreme as, although they are not required to make a profit, the goal of most commercial improvements is to reduce cost - waste elimination, efficiency improvements, value-for-money reviews etc. Which would have the effect of increasing what the team could do with their budget. But clearly that isn't important to them! (Apparently the team principal gives Finance the grand sum of 20mins of his time a month! Wowee!!!)
- Prospects are negligible. Essentially waiting for the FC to get bored/move on. No other opportunity for progression or advancement.
- Despite the lack of any rewards in terms of challenge/promotion prospects/ability to feel like you're making a difference, the salary offered was pretty mediocre.
- Because the finance team is so small (5 people, about 1/4 the size I would expect for the estimated turnover and complexity of the organisation), everyone has to 'muck in' and do data-entry such as loading Purchase Invoices onto the system (direct quote!)...this is like asking a qualified doctor to change bedsheets in a hospital - a complete waste of time and resource. Yet the FC felt they didn't need anyone else in the team, despite HIM having to do this and all of them working weekends!
In short, I got the impression they were looking for someone who would be 'grateful' to work for an F1 team, to put in stupid hours 'for the team' with no prospect of reward/advancement for them, and not to question or try and improve what was done - "JFDI".
On top of that, they made it clear they had no loyalty to Honda, as they felt Honda may well in a few years show no loyalty to them and sell them on. Got the distinct impression they new s*d-all about Honda's motorsport heritage (most active mfr in motorsport overall and have been contributing to BAR since 1999 or 2000).
ARROGANT CONCEITED SHORT-SIGHTED TW@TS Edit: This isn't sour-grapes. I've not had any feedback yet, think I did quite well.
Edited by havoc on Thursday 16th November 10:19
Edited by havoc on Thursday 16th November 10:20
From what you have stated below, it may sound a bit arrogant to an outsider at first glance. However are they not trying to tell you ‘how it really is’ so there are no surprises later on should you be asked to join 
.
Working in a small team means that everybody gets involved, MD down. If that means finance have to be data inputters so what, not sure my imagination would ever let me compare any aspect of finance to being a doctor though, bed sheets or not 
.
I work in a medium to large size company that is engineering driven and I happily consider Finance, HR, IT etc to be support arms, not 2nd class citizens but a part of the business, but they are not in any way the core business.
The biggest problem with British industry, and mine has been leaning this way over the last few years, has been the expansion and ‘self importance’ put on these support arms. It just adds more and more to the ‘overhead’ until you price yourself out of the market sector.
You may note that Finance et al are considered to be ‘support services’ in the successful industrial nations such US, Japan or Germany. This is reflected the comparative salaries for a ‘Financial Director’ between those and the UK where Finance gets boards status and +100% salary, but the companies on average are no more successful if not less.
In simple terms where is the added value from giving Finance a status above that of a support arm to the core business.
Sorry that turned into a bit of rant, more out of frustration at British industry as a whole rather than your good self.
. Working in a small team means that everybody gets involved, MD down. If that means finance have to be data inputters so what
, not sure my imagination would ever let me compare any aspect of finance to being a doctor though, bed sheets or not . I work in a medium to large size company that is engineering driven and I happily consider Finance, HR, IT etc to be support arms, not 2nd class citizens but a part of the business, but they are not in any way the core business.
The biggest problem with British industry, and mine has been leaning this way over the last few years, has been the expansion and ‘self importance’ put on these support arms. It just adds more and more to the ‘overhead’ until you price yourself out of the market sector.
You may note that Finance et al are considered to be ‘support services’ in the successful industrial nations such US, Japan or Germany. This is reflected the comparative salaries for a ‘Financial Director’ between those and the UK where Finance gets boards status and +100% salary, but the companies on average are no more successful if not less.
In simple terms where is the added value from giving Finance a status above that of a support arm to the core business
. Sorry that turned into a bit of rant, more out of frustration at British industry as a whole rather than your good self.
FWD - LoL! 
Mark - as I said, I expected it to be different for the engineers. I've little doubt that as an engineer an F1 team is at/near the pinnacle of the industry, and would make a great career. And on a personal note I'm glad you're happy!
Harry - the FC WAS trying to give it warts-and-all. He seemed like a nice guy, if one who'd had the stuffing knocked out of him. The HR girl WAS arrogant - corporate arrogant not personal arrogant. Which I think was woefully misplaced, esp. in a 23 year-old who's probably not worked many places and gained sufficient experience to know how things SHOULD work.
BUT...the 'warts and all', to my mind, showed a lack of focus on what the support services COULD bring to the business. I would be the first to agree that finance IS only support, and shouldn't direct the business (that way failure lies - most accountants are not creative business leaders, but ARE good foils to bounce ideas off and to expertly appraise business cases, internal processes etc...a strong FD should be there as a reliable and commercially-sharp #2 to the MD).
I would suggest that there's a difference between 'active' support and passively 'just doing my job'. And IMHO Finance can do a LOT to identify areas where the business is underperforming, and to identify issues and trends before they become problems. Add to that my own current specialism which is process-improvement (not just finance, but HR, IT, Inventory...).
Anyway, I guess I'm just bitter that my 'dream job' (as both a motorsport nut and a Honda nut) would have turned out to be a nightmare. Thanks for listening/reading!
Mark - as I said, I expected it to be different for the engineers. I've little doubt that as an engineer an F1 team is at/near the pinnacle of the industry, and would make a great career. And on a personal note I'm glad you're happy!
Harry - the FC WAS trying to give it warts-and-all. He seemed like a nice guy, if one who'd had the stuffing knocked out of him. The HR girl WAS arrogant - corporate arrogant not personal arrogant. Which I think was woefully misplaced, esp. in a 23 year-old who's probably not worked many places and gained sufficient experience to know how things SHOULD work.
BUT...the 'warts and all', to my mind, showed a lack of focus on what the support services COULD bring to the business. I would be the first to agree that finance IS only support, and shouldn't direct the business (that way failure lies - most accountants are not creative business leaders, but ARE good foils to bounce ideas off and to expertly appraise business cases, internal processes etc...a strong FD should be there as a reliable and commercially-sharp #2 to the MD).
I would suggest that there's a difference between 'active' support and passively 'just doing my job'. And IMHO Finance can do a LOT to identify areas where the business is underperforming, and to identify issues and trends before they become problems. Add to that my own current specialism which is process-improvement (not just finance, but HR, IT, Inventory...).
Anyway, I guess I'm just bitter that my 'dream job' (as both a motorsport nut and a Honda nut) would have turned out to be a nightmare. Thanks for listening/reading!
waynepixel said:
Sound like a crap job. And why do they need finance to work on the weekend. Anyway good luck
1) Agreed.
2) Because they can't be bothered to recruit a large enough team as (I imagine) they want to save as much money as possible to spend on R&D etc., not actually realising that paying someone £50k+ a year (FC, not the role I was looking at) to then load on Purchase Invoices MIGHT not be an efficient use of resources and that GOOD Finance people MIGHT just have a few ideas about where and how to save costs!
3) Thanks...have decided that auto industry is too much hassle for an ambitious accountant, am looking elsewhere.
havoc said:
In short, I got the impression they were looking for someone who would be 'grateful' to work for an F1 team, to put in stupid hours 'for the team' with no prospect of reward/advancement for them...
BAR/Honda make a bit of a statement by putting the names of everyone on the "team" on the inside of the car's rear wing endplates.
Do you happen to know if the names of "support staff" are included in that one form of recognition?
flemke said:
havoc said:
In short, I got the impression they were looking for someone who would be 'grateful' to work for an F1 team, to put in stupid hours 'for the team' with no prospect of reward/advancement for them...
BAR/Honda make a bit of a statement by putting the names of everyone on the "team" on the inside of the car's rear wing endplates.
Do you happen to know if the names of "support staff" are included in that one form of recognition?
*600+ people at Brackley, apparently, and the endplates only looked, at a guess, to have c.100 or so on each side. So can't be the whole team then...
I think a lot of this is fairly typical of F1 and motorsport in general.
The relationship between core and support functions in a race team is a difficult one to manage, and it's very easy to either be too slack (and thus negate the benefits that support functions can bring to the business as a whole) or too corporate (which will hold back the progress of the engineering functions). I certainly think many teams can do better but at the same time you can get so held back if influence swings too much towards the support functions. i know people involved in support software development for F1 teams. My friend could write a working database to do a certain function before the (large corporate) software guy responsible gathers the information required to write a specification. Over 12 months down the line they are still waiting for the software, which is madness if you are trying win races - something the corporate managers don't grasp when they insist such procedures are followed. On the other hand if everyone just did their own thing all hell would break loose and the place would be disorganised - it's a fine balance!
You will find in a lot of motorsport roles (in all disciplines) that it is very much led from the top and you will be carrying out the other peoples wishes without having too much freedom within that role. Even in top teams, if you don't have the required authority you'd be hard pressed to get a process changed unless you could persuade the person with that authority it was worthwhile.
I'm very surprised all the finance people were working weekends though - I would expect such departments to have more conventional hours compared to the designers/mechanics and manufacturing.
I'm kind of torn on the subject of attracting people who are grateful to work in the sport, and willing to be abused in terms of both working conditions and pay. On the one hand I'd like to say I wouldn't put up with it but if I get a job offer from my recent applications I'd find it hard to turn down. At the end of the day, if you are willing to tolerate the conditions in order to be part of a fantastic team experience then go for it, if not then it's not the right job. I'll be taking this job if I get it - it may cost me short term but long term I'll gain skills rapidly that I wouldn't get elsewhere!
It's a shame you feel disillusioned by the industry from recent experiences, as there are a lot of good aspects that I've found it hard to find elsewhere. On the other hand in many ways the industry isn't progressive but the only way that'll change is if people go in who can manage the sport/corporate "conflict" effectively and bring appropriate new techniques to the company, without impacting the speed of the core functions.
The relationship between core and support functions in a race team is a difficult one to manage, and it's very easy to either be too slack (and thus negate the benefits that support functions can bring to the business as a whole) or too corporate (which will hold back the progress of the engineering functions). I certainly think many teams can do better but at the same time you can get so held back if influence swings too much towards the support functions. i know people involved in support software development for F1 teams. My friend could write a working database to do a certain function before the (large corporate) software guy responsible gathers the information required to write a specification. Over 12 months down the line they are still waiting for the software, which is madness if you are trying win races - something the corporate managers don't grasp when they insist such procedures are followed. On the other hand if everyone just did their own thing all hell would break loose and the place would be disorganised - it's a fine balance!
You will find in a lot of motorsport roles (in all disciplines) that it is very much led from the top and you will be carrying out the other peoples wishes without having too much freedom within that role. Even in top teams, if you don't have the required authority you'd be hard pressed to get a process changed unless you could persuade the person with that authority it was worthwhile.
I'm very surprised all the finance people were working weekends though - I would expect such departments to have more conventional hours compared to the designers/mechanics and manufacturing.
I'm kind of torn on the subject of attracting people who are grateful to work in the sport, and willing to be abused in terms of both working conditions and pay. On the one hand I'd like to say I wouldn't put up with it but if I get a job offer from my recent applications I'd find it hard to turn down. At the end of the day, if you are willing to tolerate the conditions in order to be part of a fantastic team experience then go for it, if not then it's not the right job. I'll be taking this job if I get it - it may cost me short term but long term I'll gain skills rapidly that I wouldn't get elsewhere!
It's a shame you feel disillusioned by the industry from recent experiences, as there are a lot of good aspects that I've found it hard to find elsewhere. On the other hand in many ways the industry isn't progressive but the only way that'll change is if people go in who can manage the sport/corporate "conflict" effectively and bring appropriate new techniques to the company, without impacting the speed of the core functions.
havoc said:
flemke said:
havoc said:
In short, I got the impression they were looking for someone who would be 'grateful' to work for an F1 team, to put in stupid hours 'for the team' with no prospect of reward/advancement for them...
BAR/Honda make a bit of a statement by putting the names of everyone on the "team" on the inside of the car's rear wing endplates.
Do you happen to know if the names of "support staff" are included in that one form of recognition?
*600+ people at Brackley, apparently, and the endplates only looked, at a guess, to have c.100 or so on each side. So can't be the whole team then...
All the names don't fit on so they vary the list of names car to car.
I'm surprised you found it so surprising, to be honest.
It's Honda Racing, they're owned by Honda, whether they sell them out in a few years or not, they have no need to turn a profit. Honda are there to win, so money will be thrown at R&D as that's what Honda are effectively paying for. The financial dept has nothing to do with what Honda wants to achieve in motorsport, or indeed from a marketing point of view on from that. And yes, the people (especially as a small team) in the finance dept WILL be doing just so they can say they work for the Honda F1 team, why else would they do it if its so crap?
It's different at Williams because they're a private company who have had manufacturer involvement and partnerships, never bought out or owned by one. And now they have no manufacturer involvement they need to turn a profit to stay in business.
It's Honda Racing, they're owned by Honda, whether they sell them out in a few years or not, they have no need to turn a profit. Honda are there to win, so money will be thrown at R&D as that's what Honda are effectively paying for. The financial dept has nothing to do with what Honda wants to achieve in motorsport, or indeed from a marketing point of view on from that. And yes, the people (especially as a small team) in the finance dept WILL be doing just so they can say they work for the Honda F1 team, why else would they do it if its so crap?
It's different at Williams because they're a private company who have had manufacturer involvement and partnerships, never bought out or owned by one. And now they have no manufacturer involvement they need to turn a profit to stay in business.
egomeister said:
I'm kind of torn on the subject of attracting people who are grateful to work in the sport, and willing to be abused in terms of both working conditions and pay. On the one hand I'd like to say I wouldn't put up with it but if I get a job offer from my recent applications I'd find it hard to turn down. At the end of the day, if you are willing to tolerate the conditions in order to be part of a fantastic team experience then go for it, if not then it's not the right job. I'll be taking this job if I get it - it may cost me short term but long term I'll gain skills rapidly that I wouldn't get elsewhere!
From an engineering perspective, then yes motorsport will give an employee unique experience, and an excellent CV. In accounting, there is no direct equivalent, but working for a respected Corporate Finance/Corporate Recovery organisation would do the same (I did secondments to each and they are both 'work-hard, play-hard' environments with great experience!), as would (to a lesser degree) the Big-4 practices. And there they make the most out of their employees also, and again there is a very young and dynamic team environment.
Sadly I don't think the m-sport companies realise that there isn't the same draw for accountants, IT experts etc., and treat everyone the same. Net result is they'll get people who have a greater obsession for M-sport (esp. in the case of F1) than they have self-respect/common-sense. And without wishing TOO much disrespect, those people WON'T be the best, the brightest, or the most ambitious.
egomeister said:
It's a shame you feel disillusioned by the industry from recent experiences, as there are a lot of good aspects that I've found it hard to find elsewhere. On the other hand in many ways the industry isn't progressive but the only way that'll change is if people go in who can manage the sport/corporate "conflict" effectively and bring appropriate new techniques to the company, without impacting the speed of the core functions.
Very true. Sadly I'm not at a level (yet) where senior people will take me seriously in that environment. At the last place (UK arm of famous direct-seller, UK operations larger than whole of Honda Racing F1) I had the ear of Finance, IT, and Ops Directors...I do know my stuff! I would still love to work somewhere like Prodrive, IF I could be certain that I would be taken seriously and have as much career progression opportunity as the engineers.
Regarding good aspects...probably are from an engineering perspective. Not so convinced from a Finance viewpoint...given experience there and 2 years working at Jag/Land Rover, I'm not sure how many people would take a Finance person seriously whatever their experience, there seems to be a built-in antipathy towards us!
Racefan...I don't think Honda have bottomless pockets...the FC said one of the key targets of Finance was to ensure they stayed within budget. And I was surprised that, despite them not needing to make a profit, they seemed completely ignorant (the company, not the FC) of how a good Finance team could contribute to cost-reduction, process improvement, value-for-money reviews etc. Struck me as a very old-fashioned and short-sighted view of Finance - bean counters not business advisors.
havoc said:
On top of that, they made it clear they had no loyalty to Honda, as they felt Honda may well in a few years show no loyalty to them and sell them on. Got the distinct impression they new s*d-all about Honda's motorsport heritage.
Honda's motorsport heritage includes dumping Williams at the last possible moment so that they could not get an engine deal for the following season. Not overwhelming loyalty there. And there have been other occasions. Mind you, of course, that makes them far from unique in the pit lane.
They're not ignorant. It's a simple case of any amount of cash that comes in will go on R&D, it's the natural order of F1, especially the sharp end.
I can see why it would seem that way to someone who hasn't seen it up close. But, I also agree with you that its a blinkered view, for instance you might be able to save them cash to spend on more R&D... So I understand.
Unfortunately, in a manufacturer 'owned' team, that's the way it will be. If you think that's bad, imagine what its like at Toyota and the amount they're allegedly spending. It'd probably make most FD's weep!
I can see why it would seem that way to someone who hasn't seen it up close. But, I also agree with you that its a blinkered view, for instance you might be able to save them cash to spend on more R&D... So I understand.
Unfortunately, in a manufacturer 'owned' team, that's the way it will be. If you think that's bad, imagine what its like at Toyota and the amount they're allegedly spending. It'd probably make most FD's weep!
racefan_uk said:
I can see why it would seem that way to someone who hasn't seen it up close. But, I also agree with you that its a blinkered view, for instance you might be able to save them cash to spend on more R&D... So I understand.
Given they've just hired 35 people to operate and use the new 2nd wind-tunnel, I can't forgive them. Give me a c.£100k budget for 2 GOOD qualified commercially-minded accountants and I could review most of their financially-related processes (everything from HR through IT to inventory management, purchasing and supplier-management...) within a year and save them a large multiple of that budget for the following year. It's the principle behind Internal Audit, although Internal Audit dept's rarely get commercially-minded people.
racefan_uk said:
Unfortunately, in a manufacturer 'owned' team, that's the way it will be. If you think that's bad, imagine what its like at Toyota and the amount they're allegedly spending. It'd probably make most FD's weep!
[hands over ears]La la la I am not listening!
I dread to think! I really don't want to know.
havoc said:
Sadly I don't think the m-sport companies realise that there isn't the same draw for accountants, IT experts etc., and treat everyone the same. Net result is they'll get people who have a greater obsession for M-sport (esp. in the case of F1) than they have self-respect/common-sense. And without wishing TOO much disrespect, those people WON'T be the best, the brightest, or the most ambitious.
I don't think you're far wrong here. I'd imagine a finance position in F1 wouldn't be regarded too differently to a finance position in another industry, and aside from perhaps some small talk in an interview you probably wouldn't gain much from having an F1 team as an employer than you could from any other company.
havoc said:
Very true. Sadly I'm not at a level (yet) where senior people will take me seriously in that environment. At the last place (UK arm of famous direct-seller, UK operations larger than whole of Honda Racing F1) I had the ear of Finance, IT, and Ops Directors...I do know my stuff! I would still love to work somewhere like Prodrive, IF I could be certain that I would be taken seriously and have as much career progression opportunity as the engineers.
Regarding good aspects...probably are from an engineering perspective. Not so convinced from a Finance viewpoint...given experience there and 2 years working at Jag/Land Rover, I'm not sure how many people would take a Finance person seriously whatever their experience, there seems to be a built-in antipathy towards us!
I wouldn't write motorsport off on the basis of Honda - I don't know the inner workings of that team at all, and maybe it is a particularly restrictive environment. I'm sure if you show yourself to be intelligent and enthusiatic you can start to have more of an influence. F1 teams are very structured in terms of job roles and you might be able to have a freer role at somewhere like Prodrive, certainly there would be more opportunity to perhaps move into other areas of the business such as account management etc. I'm not sure things are really any better for engineers in terms of career progression - motorsport tends to have a very lean, flat management structure so you'd have to be doing pretty well to become a department head for example - thats not to say the "workers" don't end up being well rewarded if they do a decent job. I think a lot of the antipathy towards support functions in motorsport comes from these roles not seeming having the same urgency as those on the technical side - I have had many occasions where it has taken longer for a urgent part to be ordered, then it did for me to design!
Keep looking, you may find a role which suits your skills better in perhaps a more open minded organisation (or perhaps the guy who interviewed you was very negative, and actually its a whole lot better in reality - which is very possible!
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