Turbocharged biodiesel power in F1?
Discussion
Following on from the successful Audi R10 and soon to be racing Peugeot diesel racer is there the possibility of a turbocharged biodiesel in F1?
Who'll be the sponsors, Mazola?
Forced-induction is a concept which pre-dates the automobile. America's Francis Roots patented a pump system designed to increase the power of blast furnaces as long ago as 1860. As early as 1900 Gottlieb Daimler obtained a patent for a similar idea in relation to automobile engines. He was followed down the same route by Louis Renault and the first "supercharged" engines began appearing in racing in the early years of the Twentieth Century. World War I played a big role in the development of the concept as engineers sought more power for their aeroplanes and in the years that followed supercharged engines began to invade the racing world. Mercedes-Benz led the way in Europe while Harry Miller's engines dominated in America.
Turbocharging developed as an alternative solution - superchargers were mechanically-driven while turbochargers are driven by exhaust gases. The idea was first patented in Switzerland in 1905 by Alfred Buchi but its development was slow and largely linked to the growth of aviation as turbocharging enabled planes to fly at higher altitudes. During World War II there was much development and turbo engines began to appear in land vehicles in 1949 with much success in trucks although in 1952 Fred Agabashian qualified for pole position at the Indianapolis 500 using a Cummins diesel turbo engine. It would be 10 years before the first turbocharged production cars appeared, the first being the Oldsmobile Cutlass Jetfire and Chevrolet's Corvair. They were not very reliable and while turbocharging continued to be used in racing, notably with Offenhauser and Porsche CanAm engines, it was not until the 1970s that BMW took the concept back to road cars with the launch of the BMW 2002 Turbo in 1973 and the Porsche 911 Turbo in 1974. Renault led the way in F1 in 1977 and in the years that followed development was such that a 1.5-litre turbo engine could be made to produce an astonishing 1500hp. In the end the FIA had to step in and ban turbochargers in order to cut the costs in F1.
Diesel engines were first invented in the 1890s by Germany's Rudolf Diesel and were used in many forms of commercial vehicle although as early as 1931 a Cummins Diesel ran non-stop in the Indianapolis 500, finishing 13th, on the same lap as the winner. As previously mentioned a turbodiesel took pole position at Indianapolis in 1952 but the first commercial turbodiesels appeared only in 1978 with the Mercedes 300SD and the Peugeot 604 which followed in 1979. As gasoline prices rose, diesel cars became more economically viable and as sales increased so did development and in the 1990s turbodiesels were raced in touring cars, notably with BMW winning the Nurburgring 24 Hours with a 320d. In recent years the technologies have been applied in sports car racing with Audi winning the Le Mans 24 Hours this year, the first diesel-powered victory in the French classic. Peugeot is now trying to achieve the same thing and earlier this summer the British-based earthmoving company JCB set a new diesel land speed record, achieving 350.092mph with Andy Green at the wheel.
The increasing awareness of environmental issues has given the turbodiesels an additional boost. Diesel engines not only get 40% more miles per gallon than gasoline engines but they produce very little carbon monoxide. They do produce particulate matter (soot) if the engine is not properly tuned although the development of electronic injection systems has reduced this significantly.
When Rudolf Diesel first revealed his prototype engines in the 1890s these ran on peanut oil and as early as 1912 Diesel argued that the use of vegetable oils for engine fuels might one day become "as important as petroleum and the coal-tar products of the present time". That now seems to be coming true as engineers look at what can be achieved using biodiesel rather than petrodiesel.
Biodiesel can be obtained from vegetable oil or animal fats which can be mixed with petrodiesel in any amount in modern engines. It is biodegradable and non-toxic, and has significantly fewer emissions than petroleum-based diesel when burned. Biodiesel functions in current diesel engines and could in theory supplement fossil fuels as the world's primary transport energy source. Although it is currently more expensive to manufacture the price should reduce as economies of scale kick in and governments use subsidies to encourage users to switch away from petroleum. It is seen as the fuel of the future.
Helping the automotive industry to develop turbocharged biodiesels would be a major step for F1 in terms of the sport's relevance to the automobile industry. It would advertise the products and perhaps offer new scientific developments that could be applied to production cars. Certainly such work would have more ultimate value than the current gas-guzzling, high-revving 2.4-litre V8s that are used today.
Who'll be the sponsors, Mazola?
GP.com said:
Forced-induction is a concept which pre-dates the automobile. America's Francis Roots patented a pump system designed to increase the power of blast furnaces as long ago as 1860. As early as 1900 Gottlieb Daimler obtained a patent for a similar idea in relation to automobile engines. He was followed down the same route by Louis Renault and the first "supercharged" engines began appearing in racing in the early years of the Twentieth Century. World War I played a big role in the development of the concept as engineers sought more power for their aeroplanes and in the years that followed supercharged engines began to invade the racing world. Mercedes-Benz led the way in Europe while Harry Miller's engines dominated in America.
Turbocharging developed as an alternative solution - superchargers were mechanically-driven while turbochargers are driven by exhaust gases. The idea was first patented in Switzerland in 1905 by Alfred Buchi but its development was slow and largely linked to the growth of aviation as turbocharging enabled planes to fly at higher altitudes. During World War II there was much development and turbo engines began to appear in land vehicles in 1949 with much success in trucks although in 1952 Fred Agabashian qualified for pole position at the Indianapolis 500 using a Cummins diesel turbo engine. It would be 10 years before the first turbocharged production cars appeared, the first being the Oldsmobile Cutlass Jetfire and Chevrolet's Corvair. They were not very reliable and while turbocharging continued to be used in racing, notably with Offenhauser and Porsche CanAm engines, it was not until the 1970s that BMW took the concept back to road cars with the launch of the BMW 2002 Turbo in 1973 and the Porsche 911 Turbo in 1974. Renault led the way in F1 in 1977 and in the years that followed development was such that a 1.5-litre turbo engine could be made to produce an astonishing 1500hp. In the end the FIA had to step in and ban turbochargers in order to cut the costs in F1.
Diesel engines were first invented in the 1890s by Germany's Rudolf Diesel and were used in many forms of commercial vehicle although as early as 1931 a Cummins Diesel ran non-stop in the Indianapolis 500, finishing 13th, on the same lap as the winner. As previously mentioned a turbodiesel took pole position at Indianapolis in 1952 but the first commercial turbodiesels appeared only in 1978 with the Mercedes 300SD and the Peugeot 604 which followed in 1979. As gasoline prices rose, diesel cars became more economically viable and as sales increased so did development and in the 1990s turbodiesels were raced in touring cars, notably with BMW winning the Nurburgring 24 Hours with a 320d. In recent years the technologies have been applied in sports car racing with Audi winning the Le Mans 24 Hours this year, the first diesel-powered victory in the French classic. Peugeot is now trying to achieve the same thing and earlier this summer the British-based earthmoving company JCB set a new diesel land speed record, achieving 350.092mph with Andy Green at the wheel.
The increasing awareness of environmental issues has given the turbodiesels an additional boost. Diesel engines not only get 40% more miles per gallon than gasoline engines but they produce very little carbon monoxide. They do produce particulate matter (soot) if the engine is not properly tuned although the development of electronic injection systems has reduced this significantly.
When Rudolf Diesel first revealed his prototype engines in the 1890s these ran on peanut oil and as early as 1912 Diesel argued that the use of vegetable oils for engine fuels might one day become "as important as petroleum and the coal-tar products of the present time". That now seems to be coming true as engineers look at what can be achieved using biodiesel rather than petrodiesel.
Biodiesel can be obtained from vegetable oil or animal fats which can be mixed with petrodiesel in any amount in modern engines. It is biodegradable and non-toxic, and has significantly fewer emissions than petroleum-based diesel when burned. Biodiesel functions in current diesel engines and could in theory supplement fossil fuels as the world's primary transport energy source. Although it is currently more expensive to manufacture the price should reduce as economies of scale kick in and governments use subsidies to encourage users to switch away from petroleum. It is seen as the fuel of the future.
Helping the automotive industry to develop turbocharged biodiesels would be a major step for F1 in terms of the sport's relevance to the automobile industry. It would advertise the products and perhaps offer new scientific developments that could be applied to production cars. Certainly such work would have more ultimate value than the current gas-guzzling, high-revving 2.4-litre V8s that are used today.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Friday 17th November 16:44
I doubt it, the characteristics of diesels dont work in f1 cars. Theres no real need for efficiency as the extra weight of the fuel ruins the tyres and F1 cars have hardly any torque anyway, about 300lb/ft iirc so they dont need much more. I couldnt see them being any better than the high revving petrols that they have just now unless it was an engineered rule change.
They work in sportscars because they use less fuel and are just as, if not more powerful. An F1 car would either need shorter fuel stops or carry less fuel negating any weight disadvantage a diesel engine might have.
But I hope they don't. Biofuel (bioethanol) yes, diesel no.
But I hope they don't. Biofuel (bioethanol) yes, diesel no.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Friday 17th November 20:09
FourWheelDrift said:
They work in sportscars because they use less fuel and are just as, if not more powerful. An F1 car would either need shorter fuel stops or carry less fuel negating any weight disadvantage a diesel engine might have.
But I hope they don't. Biofuel (bioethanol) yes, diesel no.
But I hope they don't. Biofuel (bioethanol) yes, diesel no.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Friday 17th November 20:09
Yep!
I've yet to get my head round this desire to plug diesel as a green fuel - you may end up using less but green it ain't!
Biodeisel is different (i.e. it is "green"
but you'd be promoting a fuel that is impractical for wider use (if you used every acre of land in the world avaialble to grow crops to make biodeisel, you'd only be able to produce enough of it to satisfy about 20% of the world's current consumption - plus you'd have nothing to eat. Bioethanol on the other hand, yields far greater amounts per acre and generally uses parts of plants that we don't eat and would otherwise be thrown away.
FourWheelDrift said:
They work in sportscars because they use less fuel and are just as, if not more powerful. An F1 car would either need shorter fuel stops or carry less fuel negating any weight disadvantage a diesel engine might have.
But I hope they don't. Biofuel (bioethanol) yes, diesel no.
But I hope they don't. Biofuel (bioethanol) yes, diesel no.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Friday 17th November 20:09
The Audi R10 currently develops more power than the petrol opposition because the rules allow it to. It is very difficult to size a restrictor when the air velocity entering the engine is low as it is on a diesel.
steviebee said:
FourWheelDrift said:
They work in sportscars because they use less fuel and are just as, if not more powerful. An F1 car would either need shorter fuel stops or carry less fuel negating any weight disadvantage a diesel engine might have.
But I hope they don't. Biofuel (bioethanol) yes, diesel no.
But I hope they don't. Biofuel (bioethanol) yes, diesel no.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Friday 17th November 20:09
Yep!
I've yet to get my head round this desire to plug diesel as a green fuel - you may end up using less but green it ain't!
Biodeisel is different (i.e. it is "green"
but you'd be promoting a fuel that is impractical for wider use (if you used every acre of land in the world avaialble to grow crops to make biodeisel, you'd only be able to produce enough of it to satisfy about 20% of the world's current consumption - plus you'd have nothing to eat. Bioethanol on the other hand, yields far greater amounts per acre and generally uses parts of plants that we don't eat and would otherwise be thrown away.
I understood that biodiesel (from oil seed rape) offered a better energy yield to cost ratio than bioethanol (from wheat). Having fuel and food production in competition is clearly an issue, but can't the relevant crops be grown on set aside land?
F1 fuels will shortly contain a mandated proportion of bio (rather than dino) derived oxygenates. Any move to diesel would result in the industry being turned on its head, with significant inherent cost. On the other hand, I guess it might allow Mercedes to beat Ferrari
WilliBetz
FourWheelDrift said:
Following on from the successful Audi R10 and soon to be racing Peugeot diesel racer is there the possibility of a turbocharged biodiesel in F1?
Who'll be the sponsors, Mazola?
The increasing awareness of environmental issues has given the turbodiesels an additional boost. Diesel engines not only get 40% more miles per gallon than gasoline engines but they produce very little carbon monoxide. They do produce particulate matter (soot) if the engine is not properly tuned although the development of electronic injection systems has reduced this significantly.
Who'll be the sponsors, Mazola?
GP.com said:
The increasing awareness of environmental issues has given the turbodiesels an additional boost. Diesel engines not only get 40% more miles per gallon than gasoline engines but they produce very little carbon monoxide. They do produce particulate matter (soot) if the engine is not properly tuned although the development of electronic injection systems has reduced this significantly.
Are they suggesting that the current petrol engines produce a lot of CO?
Could explain a lot I suppose, especially F1 racing ...
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