Phil Bennet's "Circuit Driver" Column
Discussion
I thought that there might be some reaction to Phil Bennet's column in "Circuit Driver" Mag (and yes I know that he's a regular on here). As there hasn't been any reaction, I thought that I'd start the debate rolling.
Phil wants to change the focus of the Britcar 24 hr race to allow it to move to a new level of competiveness and promotability. I thought that his view that it should become a fuel allowance limited race might have provoked some comment.
He also wants the race opened up to the Locaterfield type cars.
Not sure about the fuel allowance idea but I did post the following on a different forum some time ago, albeit about Britcar in general, rather than just the 24 hr race:
"didn't there used to be an endurance series for "Locaterfield 7" type cars - the Goldarts 100 or something? I thought that this was originally run by one of the Jaguar clubs but then incorporated into EERC. What happened to it? Given the number of Caterhams, Westfields etc racing i would have thought that an endurance series for these cars would have been very popular. Add in some of the other 7 like kits, Aerial Atoms, Ginettas and some of the cars from the 750mc Kit car championship and you would have big grids...wouldn't you?
The EERC could then be really simple: Britcar (for all Saloons inc V8 Stars, Thunder Belmonts, Production S1 etc etc), Britsports (for all Sports Cars from Group 6 to Porsche 911/935 to Marcos to TVRs to Sports 2000 to Radicals etc) and "BritKits" (for want of a better name for the aforementioned Locaterfields, Aerials etc etc). Ok so classes would have to apply, based on power to weight or engine capacity of other tech regs but I think that the "product" would be easier to understand, the Locaterfields could be a good (cost effective?) "starter" class and there would not be the confusion of some cars trying to race in Britcars and then again in a V8 race (if they are serviceable from race 1 etc ). Once interest in a particular class builds then maybe, just maybe, it can have its own stand alone race."
Phil wants to change the focus of the Britcar 24 hr race to allow it to move to a new level of competiveness and promotability. I thought that his view that it should become a fuel allowance limited race might have provoked some comment.
He also wants the race opened up to the Locaterfield type cars.
Not sure about the fuel allowance idea but I did post the following on a different forum some time ago, albeit about Britcar in general, rather than just the 24 hr race:
"didn't there used to be an endurance series for "Locaterfield 7" type cars - the Goldarts 100 or something? I thought that this was originally run by one of the Jaguar clubs but then incorporated into EERC. What happened to it? Given the number of Caterhams, Westfields etc racing i would have thought that an endurance series for these cars would have been very popular. Add in some of the other 7 like kits, Aerial Atoms, Ginettas and some of the cars from the 750mc Kit car championship and you would have big grids...wouldn't you?
The EERC could then be really simple: Britcar (for all Saloons inc V8 Stars, Thunder Belmonts, Production S1 etc etc), Britsports (for all Sports Cars from Group 6 to Porsche 911/935 to Marcos to TVRs to Sports 2000 to Radicals etc) and "BritKits" (for want of a better name for the aforementioned Locaterfields, Aerials etc etc). Ok so classes would have to apply, based on power to weight or engine capacity of other tech regs but I think that the "product" would be easier to understand, the Locaterfields could be a good (cost effective?) "starter" class and there would not be the confusion of some cars trying to race in Britcars and then again in a V8 race (if they are serviceable from race 1 etc ). Once interest in a particular class builds then maybe, just maybe, it can have its own stand alone race."
I think all Britcar regulars are "happy/content/satisfied/OK" with EERC as it moves into the 07 season - its first as a championship - not just a personal view, but judging by the number of entrants that have registered. Indeed, an extra race has had to be added to the championship.
We say NO to Caterhams, Westfields etc - although it will be great racing with the Britsports at Spa in the summer. Nothing against them, its just not why we go racing.
Phil is not a big fan of Britcar, which is a shame because it needs "name" drivers - and I would suggest lack of debate about the article is due to lack of interest/agreement amongst Britcar competitors.
jemco andy said:
I think all Britcar regulars are "happy/content/satisfied/OK" with EERC as it moves into the 07 season - its first as a championship - not just a personal view, but judging by the number of entrants that have registered. Indeed, an extra race has had to be added to the championship.
We say NO to Caterhams, Westfields etc - although it will be great racing with the Britsports at Spa in the summer. Nothing against them, its just not why we go racing.
Phil is not a big fan of Britcar, which is a shame because it needs "name" drivers - and I would suggest lack of debate about the article is due to lack of interest/agreement amongst Britcar competitors.
Have to say, after the other thread on EXACTLY this subject not so long ago, it's looks very much like Phil was on his own with his views on the 24...
Personally, I am not very impressed that having started the debate on here, (and the majority not agreeing with him) he then put's it in print, I am sure James is well chuffed at it.
The very idea of Caterfields taking part is silly, this has been done before *many* times and they have successfully killed off several decent endurance series (centurion challenge to name but one).
The way I see it, James can only do what the majority want him to do, otherwise people will vote with their wallets and Britcar will die. Personally speaking, my only gripe with the championship is the shorter races, however, it this is what the majority want, then so be it.
The 24H for me is the perfect format, I don’t want *anything* changed.
Well the Britcar series looks in pretty rude health to me.
We've just put an entry in for the Silverstone round and are 6th reserve behind a field of 51 starters !
Considering only 19 cars took part in this race last year, I would say that the club racer in the UK likes the current format.
We've just put an entry in for the Silverstone round and are 6th reserve behind a field of 51 starters !
Considering only 19 cars took part in this race last year, I would say that the club racer in the UK likes the current format.
Whoa - hey I can take the comments from all and sundry but at least try and be accurate.
Firstly the comment that Phil Bennett is not a fan of Britcar is utter nonsense - there can't be many drivers who have raced in more Britcar races than me, having been involved and been active in getting many others racing in the series, including racing in the series in 2007 in both Britcar and Britsports.
As far as the story being published is concerned that is simply because I wanted to open up the debate to people who might not visit forums - many people still see them as very geeky!
Coming to my view on the 24hrs - it is only my opinion and am more than prepared to take constructive critism. What is a shame is taking a beating just because one might stick their head above ground; especially when it comes from those not prepared to offer an alternative view. When it comes to the 24hrs there is no doubt about it, doing nothing is not going to build the event. If the event doesn't grow then it isn't commercially viable and it will simply stop. Time will tell.
On the EERC is in rude health - lets have that conversation again come October 2007 shall we. We see it year in year out with championships, remember everyone has deep pockets and ambition to take on the world in March. After a few shunts, breakdowns, naff driving, finger trouble, bad luck, nagging wife, business meltdown, etc. Remember how keen everyone was to do the night race in November 2006?? Talk of extra events is all fine but when it comes one week after a prior round is that really a bonus or a championship thinking about the funds of a privateer?
Finally the new format has already killed Production S1 as that no longer runs to an endurance format.
Edited to add:- Final thing to remember my Circuit Driver column is not a Phil Bennett propaganda machine! I get paid to write an article every month and I sincerely hope you enjoy reading the words even if you don't agree with them.
Firstly the comment that Phil Bennett is not a fan of Britcar is utter nonsense - there can't be many drivers who have raced in more Britcar races than me, having been involved and been active in getting many others racing in the series, including racing in the series in 2007 in both Britcar and Britsports.
As far as the story being published is concerned that is simply because I wanted to open up the debate to people who might not visit forums - many people still see them as very geeky!
Coming to my view on the 24hrs - it is only my opinion and am more than prepared to take constructive critism. What is a shame is taking a beating just because one might stick their head above ground; especially when it comes from those not prepared to offer an alternative view. When it comes to the 24hrs there is no doubt about it, doing nothing is not going to build the event. If the event doesn't grow then it isn't commercially viable and it will simply stop. Time will tell.
On the EERC is in rude health - lets have that conversation again come October 2007 shall we. We see it year in year out with championships, remember everyone has deep pockets and ambition to take on the world in March. After a few shunts, breakdowns, naff driving, finger trouble, bad luck, nagging wife, business meltdown, etc. Remember how keen everyone was to do the night race in November 2006?? Talk of extra events is all fine but when it comes one week after a prior round is that really a bonus or a championship thinking about the funds of a privateer?
Finally the new format has already killed Production S1 as that no longer runs to an endurance format.
Edited to add:- Final thing to remember my Circuit Driver column is not a Phil Bennett propaganda machine! I get paid to write an article every month and I sincerely hope you enjoy reading the words even if you don't agree with them.
Edited by p490kvp on Saturday 10th February 17:43
Sorry to spread this out... Amazing isn't it how perception differs:-
I think that this thread from seasoned competitors shows a different light.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=353708&f=147&h=0
I think that this thread from seasoned competitors shows a different light.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=353708&f=147&h=0
p490kvp said:
Sorry to spread this out... Amazing isn't it how perception differs:-
I think that this thread from seasoned competitors shows a different light.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=353708&f=147&h=0
I think that this thread from seasoned competitors shows a different light.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=353708&f=147&h=0
Have to say, I am very sorry to see that Henry has taken umbridge at this (and as I understand it, pulled out of the championship)..
It's a great shame he has IMHO....
scuffers said:
Have to say, I am very sorry to see that Henry has taken umbridge at this (and as I understand it, pulled out of the championship)..
It's a great shame he has IMHO....
It's a great shame he has IMHO....
It is. As an enthusiastic and seasoned spectator, these latest raft of changes seem ridiculous. As I understand it, competitors are actually being disuaded from increasing their chances in the championship by having their no of races available to them limited. Surely in the first year of a new championship, as opposed to a series, the idea would be to get as many regulars in to compete in the entire year, therefore creating a credibility factor amongst spectators and media. Also I'd have thought it tricky to get sponsors to understand why you're only allowed to compete in certain rounds of a championship they're effectively paying you to win for them. I understand this might be a bit of basic viewpoint, but I'm sure you get the idea.
And as for the 50+ 'entries' for the first race, anyone remember the last round at Donington...
I've made my feelings public in the other thread. I have also told James. To me, its a ridiculous situation, IF a round is over subscribed it should be a first come first served basis for the race entry.
In fact, the draft regs already confirm this so it makes the latest instruction from the EERC even more stupid. I'm not even sure of the "legal" position in a championship if competitors are not allowed to enter certain races. I just don't believe it can be fair.
Still, don't worry, James has everything under control and is absolutely certain of his race entries all year long. Talk about a rose tinted crystal ball!!!!
See you all soon,
Richard.
In fact, the draft regs already confirm this so it makes the latest instruction from the EERC even more stupid. I'm not even sure of the "legal" position in a championship if competitors are not allowed to enter certain races. I just don't believe it can be fair.
Still, don't worry, James has everything under control and is absolutely certain of his race entries all year long. Talk about a rose tinted crystal ball!!!!
See you all soon,
Richard.
I really would urge teams and drivers Not to withdraw as this achieves very little apart from dropping the entry levels, this would make the changes we are looking for even more difficult to negotiate.
The main issues seem to me to be resolvable if we can get the EERC to consider separating GT3 and GT cup from class 1 and 2, this way entry into each round would be far less a problem, and the possibility of being able to drop bad rounds then comes back into play. I also have serious concerns about safety, I understand the argument that it's the same format as the 24, but these rounds are different in strategy and planning terms and with driver experience ranging from novice to international"A" and lap speeds that could be as high as 30 secs a lap difference, not only am I asking a lot of myself to stay safe, I will need to depended on others to a much higher degree then I'm happy with. In my mind, the type of racing we do should not be a contact sport but I fear that with this present format it is inevitable. To compromise safety and as a potential result, risk high repair costs or worse, purely for the sake of Guaranteed full grids may turn out as folly in the short, medium and long term. The argument for the separation is sound on many levels and I would rather pre commit and if necessary pay a deposit for all rounds in advance if this is what is required to keep the EERC financially stable and everyone happy.
The main issues seem to me to be resolvable if we can get the EERC to consider separating GT3 and GT cup from class 1 and 2, this way entry into each round would be far less a problem, and the possibility of being able to drop bad rounds then comes back into play. I also have serious concerns about safety, I understand the argument that it's the same format as the 24, but these rounds are different in strategy and planning terms and with driver experience ranging from novice to international"A" and lap speeds that could be as high as 30 secs a lap difference, not only am I asking a lot of myself to stay safe, I will need to depended on others to a much higher degree then I'm happy with. In my mind, the type of racing we do should not be a contact sport but I fear that with this present format it is inevitable. To compromise safety and as a potential result, risk high repair costs or worse, purely for the sake of Guaranteed full grids may turn out as folly in the short, medium and long term. The argument for the separation is sound on many levels and I would rather pre commit and if necessary pay a deposit for all rounds in advance if this is what is required to keep the EERC financially stable and everyone happy.
I'm sorry but the current system is a mess and as the EERC have chased the higher profile meetings finding extra track time to separate Prod S1 from Britcar is not going to happen easily. Although I do hear that the A1GP meeting is now in doubt for EERC?
What I don't understand is how anyone is expected to plan a proper championship effort when you can't enter all the races, you don't have consistant opponents (i.e. some races will be weaker than others due to some being barred from entry, etc), some will miss double headers, some entrants are some how able to race in more races than others AND to top it all with a month to go to the first race (thereabouts) the regs are still provisional!
Given this forum is used by many competitors including the organisation why doesn't someone from the organisation give a definitive viewpoint?? Sadly when a phone call is made stories change.
PS - given the regs rely very heavily on a complex matrix of power and weight - when/how/if and where are these "power meters" going to be given out/paid for/forced upon or even bothered with??
I would say however that this is an entirely seperate issue from that highlighted in my column - which focused on the 24hrs.
What I don't understand is how anyone is expected to plan a proper championship effort when you can't enter all the races, you don't have consistant opponents (i.e. some races will be weaker than others due to some being barred from entry, etc), some will miss double headers, some entrants are some how able to race in more races than others AND to top it all with a month to go to the first race (thereabouts) the regs are still provisional!
Given this forum is used by many competitors including the organisation why doesn't someone from the organisation give a definitive viewpoint?? Sadly when a phone call is made stories change.
PS - given the regs rely very heavily on a complex matrix of power and weight - when/how/if and where are these "power meters" going to be given out/paid for/forced upon or even bothered with??
I would say however that this is an entirely seperate issue from that highlighted in my column - which focused on the 24hrs.
p490kvp said:
I'm sorry but the current system is a mess and as the EERC have chased the higher profile meetings finding extra track time to separate Prod S1 from Britcar is not going to happen easily. Although I do hear that the A1GP meeting is now in doubt for EERC?
What I don't understand is how anyone is expected to plan a proper championship effort when you can't enter all the races, etc
I would say however that this is an entirely separate issue from that highlighted in my column - which focused on the 24hrs.
What I don't understand is how anyone is expected to plan a proper championship effort when you can't enter all the races, etc
I would say however that this is an entirely separate issue from that highlighted in my column - which focused on the 24hrs.
I have to agree that at this stage with only a month or so to go, that the changes I'm looking for are unlikely to happen, I'm therefore dependent on at least a 25% fallout rate on the entries so far advised in order to make things a bit more workable in terms of consistent entry and perhaps a little safer through smaller grids. If it doesn't work out by the time we are two races in, then that's the time to think again, mind you, the prospect of having to race again on Avons is a damn good reason not to go back to BGT.
What have you heard about the A1GP/EERC
that's releasable on a public forum?? p490kvp said:
Re: A1GP - All I hear is that there isn't the desire to have the EERC racing at this meeting. I don't know details but as I understand it there is some efforts to push the EERC out of this - not sure if it will become a reality. Who knows?!
Well, if this turns out to be the case then it's a big blow to the EERC series, I wonder why JP would be looking to do this unless it's something to do with the A1 track time requirements or perhaps the prospect of 50 odd EERC cars with such varying degrees of performance laying waste to the track through "racing incidents" As you say, who knows ?!
Phil, I totally agree with your post on entries, regulations etc etc. In fact, did I write it!!!!!
I have spoken to James but he has his own agenda and I cant fathom it out. It appears Britcar has got a wonderful number of registrations but you and I know this is a long way from healthy grids throughout the year. How can the MSA allow a championship where we are not allowed to race against each other? If you are racing at Brands and I am at Combe then its hardly fair as we wont meet! What happens if you race at Brands and by the time Combe comes along the grids are small and you are allowed to enter. If your result does not count because you "elected" to race at Brands then either you wont bother to enter or if you do it will be unfair to me as there will be an extra late entry in the field. I honestly believe is completely unworkable! A first come first served basis wont cost James any money and is fair. For the life of me I cant see what is wrong with it!
As for the regulations what on earth is going on? I presume everyone is trying to build the best car they can that meets the rules. I know I am! Trouble is, what are the rules? Draft or provisional regulations do not count when it comes to a tribunal! What about the powerlogger? Has anyonne tried it? I believe they gave a couple out at the last Brands meeting but I havent heard anything about the results. I wonder why. Did they show the cars to have miles to much power or did they simply not work? Its really important to me as I know people will be thinking we run too much power and I am anxious to be able to proove them wrong!
Ho hum. Silverstone is fast approaching and my potential sponsors need to understand what they are letting themselves into! Its really not very professional and it doesn't show Britcar to its best.
Richard.
I have spoken to James but he has his own agenda and I cant fathom it out. It appears Britcar has got a wonderful number of registrations but you and I know this is a long way from healthy grids throughout the year. How can the MSA allow a championship where we are not allowed to race against each other? If you are racing at Brands and I am at Combe then its hardly fair as we wont meet! What happens if you race at Brands and by the time Combe comes along the grids are small and you are allowed to enter. If your result does not count because you "elected" to race at Brands then either you wont bother to enter or if you do it will be unfair to me as there will be an extra late entry in the field. I honestly believe is completely unworkable! A first come first served basis wont cost James any money and is fair. For the life of me I cant see what is wrong with it!
As for the regulations what on earth is going on? I presume everyone is trying to build the best car they can that meets the rules. I know I am! Trouble is, what are the rules? Draft or provisional regulations do not count when it comes to a tribunal! What about the powerlogger? Has anyonne tried it? I believe they gave a couple out at the last Brands meeting but I havent heard anything about the results. I wonder why. Did they show the cars to have miles to much power or did they simply not work? Its really important to me as I know people will be thinking we run too much power and I am anxious to be able to proove them wrong!
Ho hum. Silverstone is fast approaching and my potential sponsors need to understand what they are letting themselves into! Its really not very professional and it doesn't show Britcar to its best.
Richard.
I put this up on the "implodes" thread, just my view for what it's worth.
I don't think it exists elsewhere, some series may run a reserve system as we did in the heyday of Tuscans, but I'm not aware of this happening within any other series at present. This is one of the issues we are trying to change but it could be difficult if the series goes ahead as currently envisaged. The question one needs to ask is, how reliable are the proposed entry figures? for if the fall out rate is say 25% then places will become available and with the EERC's ability to adapt to changes , a number of the present problems could find themselves resolved in one form or another.
For example, lets assume that only 75% of the stated entries make the grid for race 1, lets add in a few reserves and some that were not originally "allocated". Lets throw in a few "offs" and failures, and the possibility of the disenchanted from race 1, race 2 then has even more capability to support new entries etc etc. When and if this happens, the EERC will have to consider changing the goal posts on how the championship point system works as teams and drivers will be taking up the grid slots and competing in more rounds, for vacant grid slots cost the EERC money. The ability to drop a bad round score will then come into play as it will be the only sensible option that is fair to all, so in a round about way, a number of these issue could sort themselves out as time goes on if the grids currently indicated are in fact 25% loaded/unqualified. If the grids are 100% correct then the EERC has a major problem initially, for it is in one respect over subscribed from day one and the very real problems that people are concerned about will take a toll, ironically this could also lead to changes that eventually help to resolve the problems but it's far from the best way of dealing with it.
In hindsight, the better option would have been to keep GT3 and GT cup as a separate series, safety issues alone make this a sensible option, and I believe that the teams and drivers competing with these cars would be capable of at least putting down a deposit for a seasons racing or as they do in BGT, pay up front. In BGT cup class the seasons fee is £10k but if you do each round you get £3k back so at a net £7k it's not that bad, and your grid slot is sorted from day one. Classes 1 and 2 in production need not adopt the same system, but there are enough GT3 and GT cup cars who prefer to race outside of BGT with their tyre connections, to support a healthy top class series, IMHO.
Dancin said:
said:
OK then!
Can anybody tell me of another so called "Championship" that allocates races to drivers?
OK then!
Can anybody tell me of another so called "Championship" that allocates races to drivers?
I don't think it exists elsewhere, some series may run a reserve system as we did in the heyday of Tuscans, but I'm not aware of this happening within any other series at present. This is one of the issues we are trying to change but it could be difficult if the series goes ahead as currently envisaged. The question one needs to ask is, how reliable are the proposed entry figures? for if the fall out rate is say 25% then places will become available and with the EERC's ability to adapt to changes , a number of the present problems could find themselves resolved in one form or another.
For example, lets assume that only 75% of the stated entries make the grid for race 1, lets add in a few reserves and some that were not originally "allocated". Lets throw in a few "offs" and failures, and the possibility of the disenchanted from race 1, race 2 then has even more capability to support new entries etc etc. When and if this happens, the EERC will have to consider changing the goal posts on how the championship point system works as teams and drivers will be taking up the grid slots and competing in more rounds, for vacant grid slots cost the EERC money. The ability to drop a bad round score will then come into play as it will be the only sensible option that is fair to all, so in a round about way, a number of these issue could sort themselves out as time goes on if the grids currently indicated are in fact 25% loaded/unqualified. If the grids are 100% correct then the EERC has a major problem initially, for it is in one respect over subscribed from day one and the very real problems that people are concerned about will take a toll, ironically this could also lead to changes that eventually help to resolve the problems but it's far from the best way of dealing with it.
In hindsight, the better option would have been to keep GT3 and GT cup as a separate series, safety issues alone make this a sensible option, and I believe that the teams and drivers competing with these cars would be capable of at least putting down a deposit for a seasons racing or as they do in BGT, pay up front. In BGT cup class the seasons fee is £10k but if you do each round you get £3k back so at a net £7k it's not that bad, and your grid slot is sorted from day one. Classes 1 and 2 in production need not adopt the same system, but there are enough GT3 and GT cup cars who prefer to race outside of BGT with their tyre connections, to support a healthy top class series, IMHO.
Edited by Racing Rod on Tuesday 13th February 15:35
Posted this on the Britcar Implodes!
Posted on the eerc site
www.eerc.co.uk/cms/news.php
The web sites are at it again,
The 'Creative Licence' has obviousley been given to an indivdual who wishes to stur the pot, for his own personnel gain.
If he wishes the sport to take him seriously maybe he should look at the damage he is doing and be constructive, rather than airing in public something that should be discussed in private debate.
This matter has got so serious over the last few years, the MSA is looking at the wording in the Blue Book with ref: Bringing the sport into Disrepute.
It is fine to discuss any part of our sport, in the bar or on the phone,
but the use of forums only undermines the whole purpose of free speech and the democratic right of reply.
The club has no right of reply, nor the officials, so by using my name or for that matter anyone else's, is a slurr on that person's character.
The real truth is, because of inuendo and false truths, people will loose friends and access to places they currently enjoy
Posted on the eerc site
www.eerc.co.uk/cms/news.php
The web sites are at it again,
The 'Creative Licence' has obviousley been given to an indivdual who wishes to stur the pot, for his own personnel gain.
If he wishes the sport to take him seriously maybe he should look at the damage he is doing and be constructive, rather than airing in public something that should be discussed in private debate.
This matter has got so serious over the last few years, the MSA is looking at the wording in the Blue Book with ref: Bringing the sport into Disrepute.
It is fine to discuss any part of our sport, in the bar or on the phone,
but the use of forums only undermines the whole purpose of free speech and the democratic right of reply.
The club has no right of reply, nor the officials, so by using my name or for that matter anyone else's, is a slurr on that person's character.
The real truth is, because of inuendo and false truths, people will loose friends and access to places they currently enjoy
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff