Britcar 2007 entries
Discussion
Very strange email received this morning.
People seem to have been "allocated" which meetings they are going to attend. Normally in a championship I always thought you would do all the rounds, or do the rounds that suited, and then drop your worst scores as necessary. Woe betide you if you haven`t been allocate your "best" circuits. We`ve only been allocated 3 races so will struggle to win the championship this year !
How bizarre.
Henry
People seem to have been "allocated" which meetings they are going to attend. Normally in a championship I always thought you would do all the rounds, or do the rounds that suited, and then drop your worst scores as necessary. Woe betide you if you haven`t been allocate your "best" circuits. We`ve only been allocated 3 races so will struggle to win the championship this year !
How bizarre.
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Wednesday 7th February 14:22
Henry, bizarre is about the right description. If James thinks he is going to get 40 plus cars on the grid for all the rounds he is surely kidding himself. If he does it will be the most successful championship for years. I cannot see 50 entries for Combe for example.
All the championships I have been involved in have run a first in, first served system for race entries. In other words, if the championship is over subscribed it is up to the competitior to get his or her entries in quickly. If you are late and the grid is full then hard luck. To be allocated races like this is unacceptable.
When we subscribed to the championship it was the best of 7 to count from 9 races. In other words you could have 2 disaster races without damaging your championship. Now one non finish wipes out your championship hopes. Simply unacceptable and I am suprised the MSA recommended it!!!!!
A disgruntled Richard!
All the championships I have been involved in have run a first in, first served system for race entries. In other words, if the championship is over subscribed it is up to the competitior to get his or her entries in quickly. If you are late and the grid is full then hard luck. To be allocated races like this is unacceptable.
When we subscribed to the championship it was the best of 7 to count from 9 races. In other words you could have 2 disaster races without damaging your championship. Now one non finish wipes out your championship hopes. Simply unacceptable and I am suprised the MSA recommended it!!!!!
A disgruntled Richard!
Was just thinking along the same lines, is there a case for separating GT3 and GT cup from Class 1 and 2 or is that no longer an option!!!
Judging by the possible entry level in all classes it would yield grids in excess of 30/35 in each case and might be a bit safer for all concerned taking into account the performance differences. If this happened we could all race at all circuits and drop the DNF's and/or poor rounds.
Judging by the possible entry level in all classes it would yield grids in excess of 30/35 in each case and might be a bit safer for all concerned taking into account the performance differences. If this happened we could all race at all circuits and drop the DNF's and/or poor rounds.
My thoughts exactly. first come first served. It is going to be chaos as people drop out of races and the whole thing goes to pot. The reason for the double points rounds is because they were poorly supported last year (Oulton Park), so that encourages southerners to make the haul up north. Likewise Spa, a financial disaster last year with few entries. If you don`t race at Spa you can not compete in the championship.
By all means give people the carrot of bonus points (possibly even triple points for Spa !). At the moment people who have paid their £400 but only intend to do a couple of rounds for fun have been allocated 7 races, people who want to contest the championship 3 !
We`re still the thick end of 2 months away from the first race & I`m a little bit up in the air still. I hope to do every round & drop my 2 lowest scores but need to tie up a few loose ends first.
The classes are still based on last year and so will obviously change after all the cars are power tested. I`ve got my eye on 2 cars which I`m using as a litmus to see if it works, fingers crossed.
Henry
edited to add :
I would take the current entries with a bit of a pinch of salt. EERC has taken everyone who`s paid £400 and allocated races to them. The figures aren`t based on confirmed & paid up entries for the races.
H.
By all means give people the carrot of bonus points (possibly even triple points for Spa !). At the moment people who have paid their £400 but only intend to do a couple of rounds for fun have been allocated 7 races, people who want to contest the championship 3 !
We`re still the thick end of 2 months away from the first race & I`m a little bit up in the air still. I hope to do every round & drop my 2 lowest scores but need to tie up a few loose ends first.
The classes are still based on last year and so will obviously change after all the cars are power tested. I`ve got my eye on 2 cars which I`m using as a litmus to see if it works, fingers crossed.
Henry
edited to add :
I would take the current entries with a bit of a pinch of salt. EERC has taken everyone who`s paid £400 and allocated races to them. The figures aren`t based on confirmed & paid up entries for the races.
H.
Edited by Henry-F on Wednesday 7th February 16:55
When I first saw the spreadsheets, I couldn't make head or tail of it, got the wife to translate it for me. Once I understood it, it depressed me a bit as I got an overall feeling that the concept of the EERC had changed, perhaps understandably, from a series that stood by the competitor to that of a series that provided racing opportunities but on EERC growth terms and that kinda took the shine off to a certain degree.
I am the first to admit that running a series of this type must be a complete nightmare and assuring proper grids through prior commitment almost impossible based on the financial need, so I can understand why we have 4 classes in Britcar as this ensures that whatever the drop out rate, grids will look fairly full. If the entries to date can be relied upon, or for that matter, if only 75% can be trusted, then for the sake of full and proper participation in a competitor lead fashion, let alone safety, GT3 and Cup should be set apart. It all comes down to the real entry level, perhaps the EERC know that the fall out rate will be high and can't risk splitting the format. I'll stick with it despite my new reservations for as you say things aren't always as they seem
I am the first to admit that running a series of this type must be a complete nightmare and assuring proper grids through prior commitment almost impossible based on the financial need, so I can understand why we have 4 classes in Britcar as this ensures that whatever the drop out rate, grids will look fairly full. If the entries to date can be relied upon, or for that matter, if only 75% can be trusted, then for the sake of full and proper participation in a competitor lead fashion, let alone safety, GT3 and Cup should be set apart. It all comes down to the real entry level, perhaps the EERC know that the fall out rate will be high and can't risk splitting the format. I'll stick with it despite my new reservations for as you say things aren't always as they seem
If it`s a championship (which I think is a great idea as it gives a bit an extra edge to the year), then you need to be able to drop a couple of rounds to cover any mechanical D.N.F`s you might have. At the start of the season charge people who want to enter the championship an entry fee which includes every round on a first come first served basis. If they don`t turn up then that`s their problem as you`ve already been paid and won`t go out of business. If, as seems to be the case, there are that many people clambering to race in Britcar then all the grid positions will fill up and the club`s financial future will be a rosy one without the need to chase entry fees & fill grids later on in the season.
If people want to turn up on an ad-hoc basis then if space permits allow them to do so, allow them to collect points, the fact they are only entering a small number of races means they won`t feature at the end of the year but it generates extra income for the club.
With things as they stand once someone has a couple of bad rounds they won`t bother doing further rounds that don`t suit them. The club needs to keep people in with a chance of winning right up to the last knockings, that way they will make the extra effort to turn up.
Henry
If people want to turn up on an ad-hoc basis then if space permits allow them to do so, allow them to collect points, the fact they are only entering a small number of races means they won`t feature at the end of the year but it generates extra income for the club.
With things as they stand once someone has a couple of bad rounds they won`t bother doing further rounds that don`t suit them. The club needs to keep people in with a chance of winning right up to the last knockings, that way they will make the extra effort to turn up.
Henry
Henry-F said:
With things as they stand once someone has a couple of bad rounds they won`t bother doing further rounds that don`t suit them. The club needs to keep people in with a chance of winning right up to the last knockings, that way they will make the extra effort to turn up.
Henry
Totally agree, I also believe that although Spa is listed as being mandatory that they will in fact allow you to do another round in its place and still go for the championship.
That means that us spectators get too see a good grid of cars then ,evetybody will get a race at some point this year which seems a funny way of running a championship when you've got to usually do as many rounds as possible to be a contender for the overall win of the championship so i really can't see how the organisers can give Bricar championship status, as stated above all races should be first come first served. As for Castle Combe i hope all the 42 grid slots will be filled its a big weekend for the circuit but i still don't understand why both races have to be on the saturday but hopefully it'll be another busy weekend for the championships first visit to the combe
Remember, this is now a Championship. Rules are rules and if they say you have to do Spa then that stays. No matter what James might say once the MSA have approved the regulations it is very difficult to change them.
On that note, the DRAFT regs say in the event of a race being oversubscribed the entries will be taken on a first come, first served basis. The way it seems to be now means Henry is correct. If we have a DNF (quite likely based on last year!) we will have blown the championship. Thus why bother going to Spa or Oulton or anywhere else as we can go and play elsewhere. The championship needs to open for as long as possible and the draft regs were good in this respect. Taking your best 7 scores from 9 races (for example) was fair for everyone.
We are committed to the championship this year and I really hope it goes well for all including the EERC. However, it is the competitors that pay the money and turn up at the races. Please dont let James piss us off!
Keep smiling,
Richard.
On that note, the DRAFT regs say in the event of a race being oversubscribed the entries will be taken on a first come, first served basis. The way it seems to be now means Henry is correct. If we have a DNF (quite likely based on last year!) we will have blown the championship. Thus why bother going to Spa or Oulton or anywhere else as we can go and play elsewhere. The championship needs to open for as long as possible and the draft regs were good in this respect. Taking your best 7 scores from 9 races (for example) was fair for everyone.
We are committed to the championship this year and I really hope it goes well for all including the EERC. However, it is the competitors that pay the money and turn up at the races. Please dont let James piss us off!
Keep smiling,
Richard.
What are the implications, from a championship point of view, of entrants racing against different competitors at different venues yet competing for the same championship. Let`s suppose we`re bloody quick (I know - bear with me this is hypothetical !), and we won every race we competed in. Someone racing against us could only come second. But someone of equal merit (to the person who came second against us), could win the rounds we were not competing in. So it was unfair on the first chap being put up against us.
Also what if Brands Hatch was my circuit, I was untouchable there, but I didn`t get allocated it. My allocated rounds were weak circuits. Someone else by chance gets all their "strong" circuits and is left out of their weak ones.
Henry
Also what if Brands Hatch was my circuit, I was untouchable there, but I didn`t get allocated it. My allocated rounds were weak circuits. Someone else by chance gets all their "strong" circuits and is left out of their weak ones.
Henry
One thing that will need checking with James - what is the impact on reserves of the "one off" outings mentioned in today's Autosport on various pages. There's talk of an Aston Martin, Jaguar, Cobra and Windrush Racing amongst others coming out to play (also no Mosler's on the official entry lists?!) - will they be allowed to join in the fun if the grids are full as seems likely as at this moment, assume not as none will have paid up as yet.
Henry - it will be a real shame if you cannot come out to play more often. Fingers crossed you can, & we look forward to catching up (literally) with you soon!
Marcos Rules !!
I'll add my two penneth...
There is a fine balance between running grids full enough to make races a financial success and maintaining some flexibility for competitors. My heart sank as soon as I heard that Production S1 and S2 were to be included with the GT cars on the same grid. I immediately suspected that there would be insufficient grid slots overall to meet demand, and with that would go any flexibility.
As it stands a DNF ends your championship. A business commitment does the same. As does a big off at one of the races where there is only a two week gap between meetings.
A system of 9 races, your best 7 count sounded really good. It enabled you to accomodate the odd calamity (or even a holiday with the family!).
Furthermore I don't think the current system will attract new entrants if the only way of getting into a race is to commit for the entire season up front and then be subject to the 'race allocation' lottery.
My plan this year was to finish the build of the new car asap, find a second driver and enter a selection of races during the season. The objective was to gear up to do the full championship in 2008. It would appear that this is now absolutely out of the question for 2007. Yes in an ideal world the car would have been finished in December, second driver signed, budget and sponsorship secured and a few hundred quid stashed in the Tucker vault on 12 January to ensure we were 'in'. As it is, it would appear that we are very definitely 'out'.
That may not matter to the EERC this year as grids are apparently full, and so presumably, are the coffers. But to maintain full grids over the years you need a steady stream of new entrants... someone like me is potentially going to race in the series for many years. But if I can't enter the car in some races this year to develop it and the team, will I bother for 2008....?
A full grid may be good for spectators, but two fullish grids of more evenly matched cars would be even better. On a grid of 40 cars you have 4 sets of only 10 cars each which are (in theory) roughly evenly matched. Is that a great spectacle, and indeed what the competitors want? I can imagine there being carnage during the short races (which with driver changes become 2 x sprint races) - the speed differential between GT3 and PS2 will be huge. Given the choice I would rather be on a grid with 30 other cars of roughly the same pace, and I suspect most other drivers are the same.
I'm also confused as to how championship scoring will work - based on the entry list some races have as few as 6 points scoring cars in a class - how does that work when there are 13 cars in the same class in other races? If you have been allocated the race with just 6 cars you will score more points for coming last than the guy who was allocated the one with 13.
I don't doubt that the thing is very complex and difficult to organise - but part of that complexity to me seems to have arisen from combining the grids to restrict supply.
I think you need to separate GT and Production. Especially as some races are pretty short and there is also a separate Production championship.
All in my humble opinion. No doubt James and the team are fielding a few phone calls....
There is a fine balance between running grids full enough to make races a financial success and maintaining some flexibility for competitors. My heart sank as soon as I heard that Production S1 and S2 were to be included with the GT cars on the same grid. I immediately suspected that there would be insufficient grid slots overall to meet demand, and with that would go any flexibility.
As it stands a DNF ends your championship. A business commitment does the same. As does a big off at one of the races where there is only a two week gap between meetings.
A system of 9 races, your best 7 count sounded really good. It enabled you to accomodate the odd calamity (or even a holiday with the family!).
Furthermore I don't think the current system will attract new entrants if the only way of getting into a race is to commit for the entire season up front and then be subject to the 'race allocation' lottery.
My plan this year was to finish the build of the new car asap, find a second driver and enter a selection of races during the season. The objective was to gear up to do the full championship in 2008. It would appear that this is now absolutely out of the question for 2007. Yes in an ideal world the car would have been finished in December, second driver signed, budget and sponsorship secured and a few hundred quid stashed in the Tucker vault on 12 January to ensure we were 'in'. As it is, it would appear that we are very definitely 'out'.
That may not matter to the EERC this year as grids are apparently full, and so presumably, are the coffers. But to maintain full grids over the years you need a steady stream of new entrants... someone like me is potentially going to race in the series for many years. But if I can't enter the car in some races this year to develop it and the team, will I bother for 2008....?
A full grid may be good for spectators, but two fullish grids of more evenly matched cars would be even better. On a grid of 40 cars you have 4 sets of only 10 cars each which are (in theory) roughly evenly matched. Is that a great spectacle, and indeed what the competitors want? I can imagine there being carnage during the short races (which with driver changes become 2 x sprint races) - the speed differential between GT3 and PS2 will be huge. Given the choice I would rather be on a grid with 30 other cars of roughly the same pace, and I suspect most other drivers are the same.
I'm also confused as to how championship scoring will work - based on the entry list some races have as few as 6 points scoring cars in a class - how does that work when there are 13 cars in the same class in other races? If you have been allocated the race with just 6 cars you will score more points for coming last than the guy who was allocated the one with 13.
I don't doubt that the thing is very complex and difficult to organise - but part of that complexity to me seems to have arisen from combining the grids to restrict supply.
I think you need to separate GT and Production. Especially as some races are pretty short and there is also a separate Production championship.
All in my humble opinion. No doubt James and the team are fielding a few phone calls....
I must admit that having bought a PS1 race winning car last year I was hoping to have a shot at outright race wins this year but that fell by the wayside ! Then I am told when it's convenient to race !!! I think I may well go Dutch seeing as their Supersport 2 class gives me what I just lost.
[quote=935]Remember, this is now a Championship. Rules are rules and if they say you have to do Spa then that stays.
I'll have to ask for clarification, that's not what I was told!
On that note, the DRAFT regs say in the event of a race being oversubscribed the entries will be taken on a first come, first served basis.
Where are the draft regs?
I'll have to ask for clarification, that's not what I was told!
On that note, the DRAFT regs say in the event of a race being oversubscribed the entries will be taken on a first come, first served basis.
Where are the draft regs?
Edited by taffyracer on Saturday 10th February 20:08
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