Rallying's Golden Age?
Discussion
I recently bought some DVDs from Duke video to watch again films that were produced by the likes of Castrol and Dunlop and which I last saw when I was a student in the early 70s at motor club evenings.
Pure nostalgia, of course, but also a reminder of how much rallying has changed. 'From Harrogate it Started' is an account of the 1971 RAC. It snowed heavily but that didn't stop the rally from covering some 2500 miles, taking in Yorkshire, Northumberland, Scotland, the Lake District, Wales (North and South)and back through central England. Crews were expected to do 36 hours before a proper rest halt - a real endurance challenge. I remember being in the Forest of Dean at 5.00am when the rally came through and watching Tony Fall set off from a stage start at maximum attack in the works Datsun 240Z, straight down a steep hill on a surface of hard frozen mud. Magic! (He rolled out shortly afterwards.)
'The Flying Finns' contains some fascinating in car footage of Hannu Mikkola in an Escort and Timo Makinen in a Mini, demonstrating their contrasting techniques with Timo left foot braking and ignoring the clutch. His commentary is classic: "Now we put car little bit sideways ... second gear, no clutch ... and Yump!"
'A Dash of the Irish' is about the Circuit of Ireland and features Paddy Hopkirk (5 times winner of the event) driving a standard Escort 1600 GT as a camera car. The fact that he's not wearing a helmet and is dressed in collar and tie doesn't stop Paddy from catching a 911 on one stage: "I think his dampers are shot ... still, I'd expect better from a Porsche!" Said while absolutely hurling the Escort down the stage, spinning the wheel from lock to lock. Great stuff.
Like I said, all pure nostalgia but when you watch these old films you can't help thinking that rallying has lost something of what made it so much fun and such a special challenge. A large part of what has changed, of course, is the management of spectators. In those days enthusiasts were more or less trusted to be sensible and were left to watch wherever they pleased. As a result, spectating became a participatory activity, requiring planning and local knowledge, together with a sense of satisfaction when you found a really good spot in the middle of some remote forest. Happy days!
Pure nostalgia, of course, but also a reminder of how much rallying has changed. 'From Harrogate it Started' is an account of the 1971 RAC. It snowed heavily but that didn't stop the rally from covering some 2500 miles, taking in Yorkshire, Northumberland, Scotland, the Lake District, Wales (North and South)and back through central England. Crews were expected to do 36 hours before a proper rest halt - a real endurance challenge. I remember being in the Forest of Dean at 5.00am when the rally came through and watching Tony Fall set off from a stage start at maximum attack in the works Datsun 240Z, straight down a steep hill on a surface of hard frozen mud. Magic! (He rolled out shortly afterwards.)
'The Flying Finns' contains some fascinating in car footage of Hannu Mikkola in an Escort and Timo Makinen in a Mini, demonstrating their contrasting techniques with Timo left foot braking and ignoring the clutch. His commentary is classic: "Now we put car little bit sideways ... second gear, no clutch ... and Yump!"
'A Dash of the Irish' is about the Circuit of Ireland and features Paddy Hopkirk (5 times winner of the event) driving a standard Escort 1600 GT as a camera car. The fact that he's not wearing a helmet and is dressed in collar and tie doesn't stop Paddy from catching a 911 on one stage: "I think his dampers are shot ... still, I'd expect better from a Porsche!" Said while absolutely hurling the Escort down the stage, spinning the wheel from lock to lock. Great stuff.
Like I said, all pure nostalgia but when you watch these old films you can't help thinking that rallying has lost something of what made it so much fun and such a special challenge. A large part of what has changed, of course, is the management of spectators. In those days enthusiasts were more or less trusted to be sensible and were left to watch wherever they pleased. As a result, spectating became a participatory activity, requiring planning and local knowledge, together with a sense of satisfaction when you found a really good spot in the middle of some remote forest. Happy days!
Great days...I was watching 83/84 stuff recently ...very long & rough stages. and went on into the night...and were practically a round trip of the country with service stops...very gruelling...drivers getting spinal injuries from the jumps was common..and hardened co drivers puking on the rough irish jumps..etc..I think the rules changed to shorter stages to bring it into line with the new regulations and framework of the world scene .. I recall a 3.0 Capri in the late 70`s being stopped after being suggested by another team manager...the guy offered up his axle for a Mk 2 escort rally car from his own and drove the managers car to the nearest Ford garage to get another with a receipt signed by the head of Ford motorsport....great days ...
Edited by F.M on Saturday 10th March 22:24
gdaybruce said:
It snowed heavily but that didn't stop the rally from covering some 2500 miles, taking in Yorkshire, Northumberland, Scotland, the Lake District, Wales (North and South)and back through central England. Crews were expected to do 36 hours before a proper rest halt - a real endurance challenge.
And they have the nerve to call the annual WRC farce "Rally GB"
The 1983 RAC was the first event I spectated on properly. It started at Longleat on Saturday IIRC, and finished on Thursday.
The first "real" stage I spectated on was a night stage that was 30 miles long.
The mate that invited me had previously told me how you could see the cars brake discs glowing at night (yea right I thought)
We were half way through the stage when the cars arrived, not only could you see the brake discs glowing brightly, but the quattros Turbos could be seen through the front grilles glowing bright orange too.
Fantastic days, when you could stand where you wanted (with a bit of common sense) not half a mile away with hundreds of Hilter wannabes telling you to stand back another hundred yards.
Sadly we'll not see the like of events like them again.
The first "real" stage I spectated on was a night stage that was 30 miles long.
The mate that invited me had previously told me how you could see the cars brake discs glowing at night (yea right I thought)
We were half way through the stage when the cars arrived, not only could you see the brake discs glowing brightly, but the quattros Turbos could be seen through the front grilles glowing bright orange too.
Fantastic days, when you could stand where you wanted (with a bit of common sense) not half a mile away with hundreds of Hilter wannabes telling you to stand back another hundred yards.
Sadly we'll not see the like of events like them again.
F.M said:
I recall a 3.0 Capri being stopped after being suggested by another team manager...the guy offered up his axle for a Mk 2 escort rally car from his own and drove the managers car to the nearest Ford garage to get another with a receipt signed by the head of Ford motorsport.
That was late 70's sometime, Boreham's legendary Mick Jones at his improvising best....
Saw this recently on a DVD, 'Golden age of British Rallying' I don't think it was Mick Jones, it was a Works Escort with one of the Finns, can't remember which, might have been Vatenen. The diff went on a road section, they had a council of war and realised if they could find a 3L Capri they could nick the diff out of it to replace the one that had gone. By sheer chance one drove past so they flagged him down exchanged the diff for a voucher signed by the competitions manager and left the guy in the middle of nowhere with no diff in his Crapi.
It brilliantly highlights the differance between the spirit of the old days compared to the new.
It brilliantly highlights the differance between the spirit of the old days compared to the new.
velocemitch said:
Saw this recently on a DVD, 'Golden age of British Rallying' I don't think it was Mick Jones, it was a Works Escort with one of the Finns, can't remember which, might have been Vatenen.
Err.....Mick Jones was Boreham's chief mechanic...
and the one in the film IIRC who said we need to find a passing 3L Crapi. And yes, from menory I think it was Ari who was the driver, and Peter Ashcroft who took the Crapi owner to the local Ford dealer with the IOU note...
velocemitch said:
Ah, Ok i'm sure your right, I didn't realise Mick Jones was a mechanic back then.
He always has been a mechanic, after Boreham pulled the plug on the RS1700T, Mick went out the Ford of South Africa and spent most of the late 80's early 90's working out there. He returned to the UK in the late 90's sometime and whilst chatting with Terry Hoyle (himself ex-Boreham of course) at Goodwood FofS back in about 2000/2001 he told me that Mick was now his workshop foreman.
I think the Mick Jones you are thinking of is a different person entirely.
monkeyhanger said:
gdaybruce said:
It snowed heavily but that didn't stop the rally from covering some 2500 miles, taking in Yorkshire, Northumberland, Scotland, the Lake District, Wales (North and South)and back through central England. Crews were expected to do 36 hours before a proper rest halt - a real endurance challenge.
And they have the nerve to call the annual WRC farce "Rally GB"
indeed!
I recall one year we had 60 miles of stages 3*~20m just in Kielder alone. And that was after we had already had a full day and night in Cumbria, Scottish Borders, and were back on the way down to N Yorkshire. Previously had done a 36 hour loop through Wales and the Midlands.
That was the year we were following Sandro Munari in his Stratos on a road section, both massively late due to various problems, mainly due to numptyism of crew DOH! plus very heavy spectator traffic, wrong side of the road hooning past the queues when out steps Dai the Plod. Tries to communicate with Sandro, gives up after a nanosecond, takes one look at us, shrugs his shoulders in despair, gives a
and a "Be on your way!" Nowadays we'd be in the slammer. Good old days indeed.
My parents were marshalling the start/arrival control of a stage and due to the high amount of spectator traffic coming up the road all the top competitors drove the wrong side of the road up the verges to get into them on time.
Best part was apparently back in them days before plod was brainwashed by the NIMBYs they were watching this happen and laughing at it.
Oh how I wish I had a time machine...
Can't remember what year it was (the year before Henri Toivenen was killed) 85? We were driving down to the Scottish Borders to Castle O'er or the next stage, and in the forecourt of a wee petrol station in Innerleithen near Peebles was Stig Blomquist's Quattro being serviced at about 6:30 am. So we stopped, as you do.
Then after he left and we got going again we got about 5 miles down the road and there was a Lancia Martini service wagon surrounded by Italian mechanics stomping about in the snow and blowing on their hands going "Sapristi Luigi it's bellisimo effing freezing". So we stopped again just as they all started to mobilise in time for Markku Allen to come stomping into the layby - a quick exchange of Italian and various other languages and the car was lifted on two trolley jacks under the front and back diffs. 6 guys dive underneath while Allen gives it beans in gear, wheels spinning like mad while two other guys balance the car on the jacks by pushing on each side of the roof.
Engine stops. Seconds (and I mean seconds) later a driveshaft appears from under the car on the end of an Italian arm. A new driveshaft is placed in the same hand and it disappears under the car again. Again, seconds later, engine starts, max revs in gear, engine stops, jacks down, a few other checks and Allen blooters off up the road.
Mechanics start to tidy up so we drive off. Another few miles down the road, Jimmy MacRae's Opel Manta (I think it was...) is being serviced in a field entrance. Another stop to watch...
A few more miles down the road, we are stuck in a slow moving convoy of spectators on a single track road... and we see a blaze of lights behind as first Toivenen and then somebody else come stomping past with 2 wheels up the (steep) grass verge and 2 wheels in the gutter of the road, and overtake the convoy at enormous speed with the car leaning over at 45 degrees.
And that was before we reached the stage!
After that, the stage itself was a bit of an anticlimax, apart from when Toivenen rolled right in front of us but was away again in seconds.
Happy happy days indeed. I have never felt the need to go to watch modern rallying.
Then after he left and we got going again we got about 5 miles down the road and there was a Lancia Martini service wagon surrounded by Italian mechanics stomping about in the snow and blowing on their hands going "Sapristi Luigi it's bellisimo effing freezing". So we stopped again just as they all started to mobilise in time for Markku Allen to come stomping into the layby - a quick exchange of Italian and various other languages and the car was lifted on two trolley jacks under the front and back diffs. 6 guys dive underneath while Allen gives it beans in gear, wheels spinning like mad while two other guys balance the car on the jacks by pushing on each side of the roof.
Engine stops. Seconds (and I mean seconds) later a driveshaft appears from under the car on the end of an Italian arm. A new driveshaft is placed in the same hand and it disappears under the car again. Again, seconds later, engine starts, max revs in gear, engine stops, jacks down, a few other checks and Allen blooters off up the road.
Mechanics start to tidy up so we drive off. Another few miles down the road, Jimmy MacRae's Opel Manta (I think it was...) is being serviced in a field entrance. Another stop to watch...
A few more miles down the road, we are stuck in a slow moving convoy of spectators on a single track road... and we see a blaze of lights behind as first Toivenen and then somebody else come stomping past with 2 wheels up the (steep) grass verge and 2 wheels in the gutter of the road, and overtake the convoy at enormous speed with the car leaning over at 45 degrees.
And that was before we reached the stage!
After that, the stage itself was a bit of an anticlimax, apart from when Toivenen rolled right in front of us but was away again in seconds.
Happy happy days indeed. I have never felt the need to go to watch modern rallying.
Remember doing the RAC - 1894 I think - and whilst driving the service barge was overtaken by Michelle Mouton (I know that's the wrong spelling but...) in a Quatrro.
No big deal but at the time I was in the outside lane on the M62 (not doing over 70 honest!) and she came past me on the right - yes on the bit of grass/etc between me and the armco. And she was not going at anywhere near the same speed I was doing.
No big deal but at the time I was in the outside lane on the M62 (not doing over 70 honest!) and she came past me on the right - yes on the bit of grass/etc between me and the armco. And she was not going at anywhere near the same speed I was doing.
It`s looking at these video`sand tv footage that started may a young mans love of fords.
The escorts had the world at there feet.
It made me buy a works car as soon as i found 1 and then got near it.
With the new fia papers for cars with rally / race history .
I am glad these camera men had the forsite in recording what thay sore.
These should be historical documents in there own rights.
rallying and raceing is not the same today.
Anyone come across any footage of the 16 valve vegantune engine in race cars 1967/1968 it was band as the 8 valve rule came in ,because it was to fast !
Days of thinking out of the box ,you can run twin cam the rule said "no number of valve stated"vegantune took the twink made there own head f1 style injection , ran it them self and offerd it to the public.
The engine i am looking for is the vegantune developed lotus 16 valve for the L blocked engine .Not the later pinto 16 valve , vta 8 valve ,vta 16 valve or toyota 16 valve head.
I also like the story "you can only run a three bearing crank " thinking again out the box .use a five bearing block and bore the extra two bearing out so they can not be used , then you follow the rules and get the thicker walled blocks on your v8 .
The escorts had the world at there feet.
It made me buy a works car as soon as i found 1 and then got near it.
With the new fia papers for cars with rally / race history .
I am glad these camera men had the forsite in recording what thay sore.
These should be historical documents in there own rights.
rallying and raceing is not the same today.
Anyone come across any footage of the 16 valve vegantune engine in race cars 1967/1968 it was band as the 8 valve rule came in ,because it was to fast !
Days of thinking out of the box ,you can run twin cam the rule said "no number of valve stated"vegantune took the twink made there own head f1 style injection , ran it them self and offerd it to the public.
The engine i am looking for is the vegantune developed lotus 16 valve for the L blocked engine .Not the later pinto 16 valve , vta 8 valve ,vta 16 valve or toyota 16 valve head.
I also like the story "you can only run a three bearing crank " thinking again out the box .use a five bearing block and bore the extra two bearing out so they can not be used , then you follow the rules and get the thicker walled blocks on your v8 .
tomuch said:
Anyone come across any footage of the 16 valve vegantune engine in race cars 1967/1968 it was band as the 8 valve rule came in ,because it was to fast !
Days of thinking out of the box ,you can run twin cam the rule said "no number of valve stated"vegantune took the twink made there own head f1 style injection , ran it them self and offerd it to the public.
Don't know about Vegantune, but I think the works took advantage of the regs on occasions and fitted Cosworth FVA engines as they were based on the same pre-crossflow block as the Lotus Twin Cam.
Edited by niva441 on Sunday 11th March 09:35
what year did the fva start to be produced / made .any idea.
I am off the thinking that the vegantune 16 valve lotus head / engine was designed first. by john sisme /george robinson .
I have found articals offing the vegantune engine to the public dated 1967 and it was in use for some time before thay offerd it on large scale to the public .
It was suggested cosworth liked the thinking behind the vegantune head thay made there own 16valve on the vegantune based design . How true this is a do not no as before my time , I was not even a twinkel in my dads eye.
thanks for reply
I am off the thinking that the vegantune 16 valve lotus head / engine was designed first. by john sisme /george robinson .
I have found articals offing the vegantune engine to the public dated 1967 and it was in use for some time before thay offerd it on large scale to the public .
It was suggested cosworth liked the thinking behind the vegantune head thay made there own 16valve on the vegantune based design . How true this is a do not no as before my time , I was not even a twinkel in my dads eye.
thanks for reply
At the grass roots level of motorsport, in the early 70s we (i.e. University of Bristol Motor Club) used to organise 12 car rallies in the South West and South Wales. These might have been the smallest possible events but they typically covered 120 miles of more or less flat out driving on public roads, starting around 11.30 on Saturday nights and finishing at 5ish the following morning. This was in the heyday of road rallying and while our events were at the bottom end of the scale, we still had to advise any householder within about 200yds of the route that the rally was coming through. Very seldom did we have any difficulties with local residents but, on one occasion, we had a complaint from someone in South Wales that we hadn't told them the rally was coming through. Their beef, however, was not the disturbance but that, if they had known, they'd have kept the children up to watch!
On another occasion, without our asking, the local policeman in one South Wales village turned out, not to trap the competitors but to stop other traffic from using the roads. He stood at a junction, urging competitors on to try harder! How times have changed!
On another occasion, without our asking, the local policeman in one South Wales village turned out, not to trap the competitors but to stop other traffic from using the roads. He stood at a junction, urging competitors on to try harder! How times have changed!
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