Are there enough AJPs....?
Discussion
...about for me to put one in me Tuscan?
On from the other thread "well done Andy & Mickey" which has turned into a "Regs" thread.
so, will there be enough AJPs and will spares be available (and cheap!) enough for me to install one.
three options ATM,
1, AJP race if I can find one or robbed from a Cerb. 420bhp?
2, Rover V8 less power, but parts are cheap and redilly available. 400bhp
3, LS Cheap everything up to 450bhp easy
i'm leaning towards 3 ATM because of price and availability, but the car was AJP originally. So whats the view? And I don't want to start something where the rules will outlaw it!!!!!
andy
No 89
I should say that i'll go into GpA (obviously) and will have aero.
On from the other thread "well done Andy & Mickey" which has turned into a "Regs" thread.
so, will there be enough AJPs and will spares be available (and cheap!) enough for me to install one.
three options ATM,
1, AJP race if I can find one or robbed from a Cerb. 420bhp?
2, Rover V8 less power, but parts are cheap and redilly available. 400bhp
3, LS Cheap everything up to 450bhp easy
i'm leaning towards 3 ATM because of price and availability, but the car was AJP originally. So whats the view? And I don't want to start something where the rules will outlaw it!!!!!
andy
No 89
I should say that i'll go into GpA (obviously) and will have aero.
it will effectively kill the spirit of the series in one go IMO. Would you want that on your conscience Andy? Thought not 
go AJP8, you know it's the one true path 
dinkel said:
Cheers, no one complained about big Yank mills in Bizza's and Iso's . . .
A 7 litre Chevy - 500 horses on standard tap - in a 1200 kg's TVR
Who'd complain?
TVR had 'em in before.
Doesn't Jelly's purple beastie Chim carry an LS?
So, is there a rule that says "no Yank V8 in the racer"?
Trackcar has a point (not too sure what it is!).A 7 litre Chevy - 500 horses on standard tap - in a 1200 kg's TVR
Who'd complain?TVR had 'em in before.
Doesn't Jelly's purple beastie Chim carry an LS?
So, is there a rule that says "no Yank V8 in the racer"?
Well not totally true on this - In one way I agree with him, but in another I don't.
So on the agreeing point - yes it "could be a pity if LS's and other lumps end up in the cars", but I only think this should apply if have an uncapped power ceiling. Looking at the Times of the Tuscans (AJP) and Sag bodied ones - there is already a huge gulf in lap times and finishing times. IMHO you need a ceiling on the Power (not the type of engines) say 450 (about what a very good AJPV8 makes).
So you would need independant RR power numbers (as I presume you have now) and stay with in them.
On the not agreeing point - AJPV8 (Proper RACE ones) will run out and get ever more expensive to remanufacture to true late 90's early 2000 Works Power. So you need something to take there place or as an alternative to keep the top cars going at a similar pace.
Some how you need the numbers up in the series - all Championships are fighting this.
I personally think the cars are definately as fast as they need to be already (the front cars are still the best prepared and more importantly driven Tuscan AJPV8's), the Sag GTF (want ever you want to call them) are not really any quicker from what I see. They should be a bit quicker. I think all all the huge rear wings and front splitters is a blind alley as far as the series is concerned. They should be as they were in the last seasons of the Tuscan series as far as the front and rear spoilers (the Tuscan with the Huge rear wing looks frankly stupid and I bet it is making the car slower - not at the very sharp end!). GTF should just have a similar sized splitter to a road Sag and the rear should be the same type as the road Sag too (that vertical plexiglass is just like a Nascar rear flipper - and they work very well).
If I was doing it it would be in a Tuscan AJPV8 (but if it became a real pain to get them or cost went mad and I wanted to stay in the championship I'd go LS). The AJPV8 with all the twin cams and timing chains is so much harder (and there for costly) to work on, in the end I would get fed up paying for all the work. Pushrods rile in my book (RV8, LS, 289, etc). If you have the money AJP is best.
My car (Road Car) if stripped, caged; cammed up a notch and slicked up would be on the pace of the slower AJP cars - but the gap to the front would be Huge - Would be a faster that the B cars obviously.
Top car in our race series is Steve Wattons - close to fia spec 65 Full race Griff200 with slightly over 400bhp, road / race narrow tyres (225' yokos on 7" rims (this year - last was allowed 8" in invitation)), about 900kg, NO aero VERY short wheelbase. This is anything from 4 - 7 seconds slower than the very fastest (who know how fast Steve is really?) Tuscans and like the above would be fighting with the slower Tuscans but ahead of the Class B cars - so ultimately pointless.
Too much Grip IS A VERY BAD THING, too much Power is just not not Great as it costs and is easy to have a large disparity.
- *I await some flak - but all the above is said with the best intentions for the Championship.
Edited by jellison on Thursday 21st June 10:18
jellison said:
dinkel said:
Cheers, no one complained about big Yank mills in Bizza's and Iso's . . .
A 7 litre Chevy - 500 horses on standard tap - in a 1200 kg's TVR Who'd complain?
TVR had 'em in before.
Doesn't Jelly's purple beastie Chim carry an LS?
So, is there a rule that says "no Yank V8 in the racer"?
Trackcar has a point (not too sure what it is!).A 7 litre Chevy - 500 horses on standard tap - in a 1200 kg's TVR
Who'd complain?TVR had 'em in before.
Doesn't Jelly's purple beastie Chim carry an LS?
So, is there a rule that says "no Yank V8 in the racer"?
Well not totally true on this - In one way I agree with him, but in another I don't.
So on the agreeing point - yes it "could be a pity if LS's and other lumps end up in the cars", but I only think this should apply if have an uncapped power ceiling. Looking at the Times of the Tuscans (AJP) and Sag bodied ones - there is already a huge gulf in lap times and finishing times. IMHO you need a ceiling on the Power (not the type of engines) say 450 (about what a very good AJPV8 makes).
So you would need independant RR power numbers (as I presume you have now) and stay with in them.
On the not agreeing point - AJPV8 (Proper RACE ones) will run out and get ever more expensive to remanufacture to true late 90's early 2000 Works Power. So you need something to take there place or as an alternative to keep the top cars going at a similar pace.
Some how you need the numbers up in the series - all Championships are fighting this.
I personally think the cars are definately as fast as they need to be already (the front cars are still the best prepared and more importantly driven Tuscan AJPV8's), the Sag GTF (want ever you want to call them) are not really any quicker from what I see. They should be a bit quicker. I think all all the huge rear wings and front splitters is a blind alley as far as the series is concerned. They should be as they were in the last seasons of the Tuscan series as far as the front and rear spoilers (the Tuscan with the Huge rear wing looks frankly stupid and I bet it is making the car slower - not at the very sharp end!). GTF should just have a similar sized splitter to a road Sag and the rear should be the same type as the road Sag too (that vertical plexiglass is just like a Nascar rear flipper - and they work very well).
If I was doing it it would be in a Tuscan AJPV8 (but if it became a real pain to get them or cost went mad and I wanted to stay in the championship I'd go LS). The AJPV8 with all the twin cams and timing chains is so much harder (and there for costly) to work on, in the end I would get fed up paying for all the work. Pushrods rile in my book (RV8, LS, 289, etc). If you have the money AJP is best.
My car (Road Car) if stripped, caged; cammed up a notch and slicked up would be on the pace of the slower AJP cars - but the gap to the front would be Huge - Would be a faster that the B cars obviously.
Top car in our race series is Steve Wattons - close to fia spec 65 Full race Griff200 with slightly over 400bhp, road / race narrow tyres (225' yokos on 7" rims (this year - last was allowed 8" in invitation)), about 900kg, NO aero VERY short wheelbase. This is anything from 4 - 7 seconds slower than the very fastest (who know how fast Steve is really?) Tuscans and like the above would be fighting with the slower Tuscans but ahead of the Class B cars - so ultimately pointless.
Too much Grip IS A VERY BAD THING, too much Power is just not not Great as it costs and is easy to have a large disparity.
- *I await some flak - but all the above is said with the best intentions for the Championship.
Edited by jellison on Thursday 21st June 10:18
I have stated my views regarding the series but a little quieter since at the moment I am very much an armchair competitor. I want a TVR based championship with TVR based cars. I don't ultimately want to see cars evolve into a full blooded silouhette (how do you spell that word) championship.
The other hand is that we don't want to see any current competitor penalised out of racing because of rule changes. in my mind therefore we should have a rationalising of the regs with a grace period of say 2 seasons for everyone elso to come into line.
I will Ultimately run in group B with a compromised car in part historic trim. I won't win tuscans, but I similarly don't want to become a mobile chicane in a field full of obscenely quick cars developed out of all proportion to what was originally intended.
The rules initially in the championship were slack to get a field of cars out there. I think it is now time to tighten up slightly whilst not unduly penalising those who have like andy, invested big sums putting a big car together.
I think aero aids should be limited to what was on the original car
I think TVR Only engines or original fit derivatives should be used
I think classing the saggy cars as a re-bodied tuscan is fair but the big wings and spoilers should go and limiting them to AJP engines only.
I think turbos and Supercharging should only be allowed if an original model was Turbo'd and bumped a class as a performance penalty
I think it is far too early to be talking about allowing non TVR fit engines, There are still plenty of AJP's about for the small series we have. At the end of the day Blocks, cranks, pistons and rods can all be made. Anyone who is trying to justify cost grounds to stick an LS chevy in a TVR is only trying to gain an unfair advantage. How much did the rest of the GTF platforms cost!! come on guys.
I have a Vixen s2 about the place. I could slam it, Rose joint everything, double its width with big aero side sills and fit a 32v DBE 450hp racing V8, pootle around the corners and trounce everything in a straight line. It wouldn't really be in the spirit of the championship though would it??
The other option is that we add a performance unlimited class for all of the nutters out there that don't think 400hp is enough. We need more nutters to fill this class though.
Neil.
Edited by heightswitch on Thursday 21st June 19:51
hi guys there seems to be a miss understanding over the change to the LS engine it was purely a supply and demand ? we would love to run ajp,s but there is not the supply of \challenge/ engines out there. you should also note that the GTF came about through long talks with other drivers in 2005, 2006 with john reeds support plus they would make better advertising platform as the series grows, we also would like to say where there,s gain we also loose ie drag down the back straight at snett as for the cost of conversion the more we build the cheaper they will get
fredtonge said:
hi guys there seems to be a miss understanding over the change to the LS engine it was purely a supply and demand ? we would love to run ajp,s but there is not the supply of \challenge/ engines out there. you should also note that the GTF came about through long talks with other drivers in 2005, 2006 with john reeds support plus they would make better advertising platform as the series grows, we also would like to say where there,s gain we also loose ie drag down the back straight at snett as for the cost of conversion the more we build the cheaper they will get
I agree completely.The Sags are a fabulous advert for the series and look superb.
IMHO a rebodied tuscan or even a full GTF with a LS motor is more of a True TVR than anything that Russian tw@t might ever produce.......
If putting chevy's or LS motors in Tuscans and reboding a few means that we keep them racing, Then Im all for it...
I've looked hard at the costs and if you want to run around 400 bhp long term a rover will cost a fortune, ajp will also be expensive to keep going, where as an ls can run virtually stock at that level of power and has cheap parts.. For me sustainable is more important that overall power. Yes you can tune them to even more power but then they start to get expensive again..
im 90% certain if my
bodied(TVR
), Tuscan challenge chassied car number 3 makes it to the track it'll have an ls in it....
If putting chevy's or LS motors in Tuscans and reboding a few means that we keep them racing, Then Im all for it...
I've looked hard at the costs and if you want to run around 400 bhp long term a rover will cost a fortune, ajp will also be expensive to keep going, where as an ls can run virtually stock at that level of power and has cheap parts.. For me sustainable is more important that overall power. Yes you can tune them to even more power but then they start to get expensive again..
im 90% certain if my
bodied(TVR), Tuscan challenge chassied car number 3 makes it to the track it'll have an ls in it....Edited by Graham on Sunday 24th June 13:45
It's raining outside and im not driving a Tivver ,so i'll bore you all with my musings ......... .
1)Are there enough AJP's ?
At the moment yes , but in the long term , dry sumped pukka Challenge engines are going to be in short supply.
2) What's the Alternative for Racing and is it within the Spirit of TVR
Racing ?
TVR has a long history of using big engines from big manufacturers in lightweight ,steel chassied Sports Cars - Ford V6 /V8 , Rover V8 ,Volvo Six , Triumph Six ,experiments with GM (Holden) engines.
If the various rumours coming out of the factory were to be believed , Smolenski was considering other units as well , Jaguar V8 , Volvo V8 as well as the usual Ford / Chevy options.
Sagaris GTF's using Chevy LS engines will provide spectacular big grunt racing for drivers and spectators alike as will Chevy engined Tuscans and existing cars like the Thorpedo.
These creations maintain the Spirit of TVR.
There are limits though ,Imagine a Toyota Supra or BMW M powered Tuscan or Sagaris !!!
Not a pleasant thought and not what Wheeler would have allowed.
The Challenge ?
I think Reidy has done a great job of maintaining a race series for TVR's when all around every other facet of the marque - the Factory ,the Design/Engineering , the Dealer network etc - was being torn apart by the Management.
There are'nt that many TVR's being raced in one make series - compared to many other sports car series , Ferrari, MG ,Porsche ,Lotus ,Caterham etc.
The Challenge as it stands has to encompass many different classes of cars and drivers , which it does with aplomb.
The few races i've done (yes i know - all at Oulton) have been made all the more enjoyable by the bonhomie encountered in the paddock.
Novices like myself get to race with ex Challenge drivers - in my case drive a car i used to watch as a spectator - all excellent stuff
.
In Porsche terms ,it's like amalgamating the Lodge 924 Challenge with Porsche Carrera Cup - and every thing else in between !
Maybe we should'nt worry too much about How the Challenge works - we should stand in amazement , that it works at all
.
Tuscans in the Challenge
Broadly speaking , the Class structure seems to be a good starting point which probably needs tweaking in a way that does'nt render any of the current cars ineligable ,and allows more cars to join - again within the Spirit of things.
Maybe the "Spirit" is defined as "would Peter Wheeler have approved ?" - if the ansers "yes" it's ok.
Japanese and German engined cars are out then.
From where im sat - in a Works spec non modded Tuscan Challenge car - i think it would be prudent to alter the class stucture at the top ,
i.e have Class A for the Original Tuscan Challenge spec cars - as would have been eligable to scrutineers in the final years of the factory Challenge.
Class A Modified could then incorporate the modded Tuscan Challenge Cars (wings,six speed seq gearboxes ,Chevys) Sagaris/GTF's and Thorpedo type cars.
This would have two effects ,1) make me more competitive
, 2)more importantly , encourage the racing and preservation of some of the last Original Tuscans Challenge Cars - if we dont , what will happen ? We all modify/rebody them to the point where we dont have an original Tuscan Challenge car in the Tuscan Challenge ? .
Enough allready , the Sun's out and im off.....
.1)Are there enough AJP's ?
At the moment yes , but in the long term , dry sumped pukka Challenge engines are going to be in short supply.
2) What's the Alternative for Racing and is it within the Spirit of TVR
Racing ?
TVR has a long history of using big engines from big manufacturers in lightweight ,steel chassied Sports Cars - Ford V6 /V8 , Rover V8 ,Volvo Six , Triumph Six ,experiments with GM (Holden) engines.
If the various rumours coming out of the factory were to be believed , Smolenski was considering other units as well , Jaguar V8 , Volvo V8 as well as the usual Ford / Chevy options.
Sagaris GTF's using Chevy LS engines will provide spectacular big grunt racing for drivers and spectators alike as will Chevy engined Tuscans and existing cars like the Thorpedo.
These creations maintain the Spirit of TVR.
There are limits though ,Imagine a Toyota Supra or BMW M powered Tuscan or Sagaris !!!
Not a pleasant thought and not what Wheeler would have allowed.
The Challenge ?
I think Reidy has done a great job of maintaining a race series for TVR's when all around every other facet of the marque - the Factory ,the Design/Engineering , the Dealer network etc - was being torn apart by the Management.
There are'nt that many TVR's being raced in one make series - compared to many other sports car series , Ferrari, MG ,Porsche ,Lotus ,Caterham etc.
The Challenge as it stands has to encompass many different classes of cars and drivers , which it does with aplomb.
The few races i've done (yes i know - all at Oulton
) have been made all the more enjoyable by the bonhomie encountered in the paddock.Novices like myself get to race with ex Challenge drivers - in my case drive a car i used to watch as a spectator - all excellent stuff
.In Porsche terms ,it's like amalgamating the Lodge 924 Challenge with Porsche Carrera Cup - and every thing else in between !
Maybe we should'nt worry too much about How the Challenge works - we should stand in amazement , that it works at all
.Tuscans in the Challenge
Broadly speaking , the Class structure seems to be a good starting point which probably needs tweaking in a way that does'nt render any of the current cars ineligable ,and allows more cars to join - again within the Spirit of things.
Maybe the "Spirit" is defined as "would Peter Wheeler have approved ?" - if the ansers "yes" it's ok.
Japanese and German engined cars are out then
.From where im sat - in a Works spec non modded Tuscan Challenge car - i think it would be prudent to alter the class stucture at the top ,
i.e have Class A for the Original Tuscan Challenge spec cars - as would have been eligable to scrutineers in the final years of the factory Challenge.
Class A Modified could then incorporate the modded Tuscan Challenge Cars (wings,six speed seq gearboxes ,Chevys) Sagaris/GTF's and Thorpedo type cars.
This would have two effects ,1) make me more competitive
, 2)more importantly , encourage the racing and preservation of some of the last Original Tuscans Challenge Cars - if we dont , what will happen ? We all modify/rebody them to the point where we dont have an original Tuscan Challenge car in the Tuscan Challenge ? .Enough allready , the Sun's out and im off.....
RetroWheels said:
...
There are limits though ,Imagine a Toyota Supra or BMW M powered Tuscan or Sagaris ...
Maybe the "Spirit" is defined as "would Peter Wheeler have approved ?" - if the ansers "yes" it's ok.
Japanese and German engined cars are out then.
That's a bugger, when I start looking around at alternative Chim engines, the two that always float to the top of the list other than the Yank stuff are the Toyota/Lexus V8 and the BMW S62 V8...ho hum...There are limits though ,Imagine a Toyota Supra or BMW M powered Tuscan or Sagaris ...
Maybe the "Spirit" is defined as "would Peter Wheeler have approved ?" - if the ansers "yes" it's ok.
Japanese and German engined cars are out then
.Regards
Iain
The Lexus doesnt seem to make decent power until you bolt a couple of turbos to it and then that brings all sorts of problems...
No ideas what the BMW lumps like but PW would probably be round with his shotgun... Now a supercharged Jag v8 might be an option...
I've heard it suggested more than once that a Tuscan Challenge car with a 4 pot cossy turbo would be quite a weapon...
No ideas what the BMW lumps like but PW would probably be round with his shotgun... Now a supercharged Jag v8 might be an option...
I've heard it suggested more than once that a Tuscan Challenge car with a 4 pot cossy turbo would be quite a weapon...
I agree with Darren that it would be good to have a class for Tuscan Challenge cars which strictly adhere to the old TC regs. The TC cars are easily the most numerous single type of car in the series. By adhering to the regs it means all drivers have as level a playing field as they are going to get. Anyone who wants to rebody or modify the cars (splitters etc) should go in the next class up.
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