Constructors v drivers championships...
Discussion
We all know that there are two championships in F1, honours for the drivers, though it would appear that McLaren are more interested in the constructors title to be honest.
Fair enough, their sponsors spend a fortune and the team invests a lot of time and money and feel that the Constructors title is a way of saying thankyou to all those who invest and encourages more to do so each season.
However, after Ron's comments yesterday, I just feel that we were stopped from having a bloody good race to the finish line. I'm starting to get fed up with the 'we turned down the engines with 15 laps to go' spin that we are being subjected to at each race now. Yes they are a team, but we want a race to the very end. I think both drivers are highly skilled and would not have taken each other off if allowed to push harder to the end.
I think it is time to scrap the 2 race engine rule, so the drivers can push hard throughout the race, and also make it that only 1 car scores points for the constructors title, so McLaren and others don't force drivers to cool it off to get both cars home.
It was a great middle stint, but am I alone in thinking that the final stint took some of the shine off what was probably the best race of the season so far...?
Fair enough, their sponsors spend a fortune and the team invests a lot of time and money and feel that the Constructors title is a way of saying thankyou to all those who invest and encourages more to do so each season.
However, after Ron's comments yesterday, I just feel that we were stopped from having a bloody good race to the finish line. I'm starting to get fed up with the 'we turned down the engines with 15 laps to go' spin that we are being subjected to at each race now. Yes they are a team, but we want a race to the very end. I think both drivers are highly skilled and would not have taken each other off if allowed to push harder to the end.
I think it is time to scrap the 2 race engine rule, so the drivers can push hard throughout the race, and also make it that only 1 car scores points for the constructors title, so McLaren and others don't force drivers to cool it off to get both cars home.
It was a great middle stint, but am I alone in thinking that the final stint took some of the shine off what was probably the best race of the season so far...?
think this has more to do with the 2 engine rule than the points - if they can race for 2/3 of the race without taking each other off, they should be able to race for full race distance without risking losing championship points - afterall they aren't going to want to lose their drivers championship points either...
just imagine how dull it might be if mm gets his way and we move to 5-race engines... totally the wrong way to go imo. these are meant to be the fastest cars, races flat out. F1 is not, and should not be made into, an endurance event.
just imagine how dull it might be if mm gets his way and we move to 5-race engines... totally the wrong way to go imo. these are meant to be the fastest cars, races flat out. F1 is not, and should not be made into, an endurance event.
Ron said that they had turned both cars engines down the same amount at the same time so that they were still racing with the same "handicap" but also saving their engines because of the two race rule.
I think Mclaren have always been one of the best teams for allowing their drivers to race each other and I don't think that this is going to change in the near future, escpecially after the outcry after Monaco. Ron is clever enough to work out that it would be better to upset Alonso by letting Lewis win then have a public backlash which could potentially upset the sponsors by forcing Lewis to concede to Alonso.
I think Mclaren have always been one of the best teams for allowing their drivers to race each other and I don't think that this is going to change in the near future, escpecially after the outcry after Monaco. Ron is clever enough to work out that it would be better to upset Alonso by letting Lewis win then have a public backlash which could potentially upset the sponsors by forcing Lewis to concede to Alonso.
The 2 race rule was an always will be bollox - they have sved shit load with the capping on engines - yest time for 1 race rull back - will never go the whole way - but that bollox about 10 grid slot penalty for popping and engine is cobblers - fair enough if the driver built it himself!
jellison said:
The 2 race rule was an always will be bollox - they have sved shit load with the capping on engines - yest time for 1 race rull back - will never go the whole way - but that bollox about 10 grid slot penalty for popping and engine is cobblers - fair enough if the driver built it himself!
It's a team event and the 10 place penalty punishes the team.I agree about the 2-race rule though. Should definitely be scrapped and back to one race per engine.
F1 like any racing IS NOT A TEAM EVENT - Stuff that - "excuse me do you mind slowing down awfully as we are both 1 two now and well infront - BOLLOX to that - flat out till the flag drops - untll then you drivethe wheels off the thing in trying to catch whoever is in front.
Team Sport - Mind you I HATED Team Sports at School - F*cking pointless - how do you know IF "You Won or it was the rest of the gang". Senna would never have put up with Team Orders.
So what the F*CK 10 positions back has to do with anything thing is beyond me and any racer - the driver did not bloody build the engine - it is JUST to mix it up an bit and see a faster car down the grid and more likley hood of the crap modern F1 having a a few more possible overtakes during another other wise processional race.
Team Sport - Mind you I HATED Team Sports at School - F*cking pointless - how do you know IF "You Won or it was the rest of the gang". Senna would never have put up with Team Orders.
So what the F*CK 10 positions back has to do with anything thing is beyond me and any racer - the driver did not bloody build the engine - it is JUST to mix it up an bit and see a faster car down the grid and more likley hood of the crap modern F1 having a a few more possible overtakes during another other wise processional race.
jellison said:
F1 like any racing IS NOT A TEAM EVENT - Stuff that - "excuse me do you mind slowing down awfully as we are both 1 two now and well infront - BOLLOX to that - flat out till the flag drops - untll then you drivethe wheels off the thing in trying to catch whoever is in front.
Team Sport - Mind you I HATED Team Sports at School - F*cking pointless - how do you know IF "You Won or it was the rest of the gang". Senna would never have put up with Team Orders.
So what the F*CK 10 positions back has to do with anything thing is beyond me and any racer - the driver did not bloody build the engine - it is JUST to mix it up an bit and see a faster car down the grid and more likley hood of the crap modern F1 having a a few more possible overtakes during another other wise processional race.
So if the dirver cocks up and punts it off the track from 3rd place with 5 laps to go, should the team still get some constructor points? After all, they weren't driving it were they.Team Sport - Mind you I HATED Team Sports at School - F*cking pointless - how do you know IF "You Won or it was the rest of the gang". Senna would never have put up with Team Orders.
So what the F*CK 10 positions back has to do with anything thing is beyond me and any racer - the driver did not bloody build the engine - it is JUST to mix it up an bit and see a faster car down the grid and more likley hood of the crap modern F1 having a a few more possible overtakes during another other wise processional race.
I agree a driver shouldn't have team orders but that's not the same as no penalty for an engine dying - if it was one engine per race weekend, are you suggesting no penalty for an engine being replaced after qualifying? If so, what's to stop teams having a qualifying engine and a race one? And how would the poorer teams compete at all?
skinny said:
engine failures should result in a loss of points for the constructors. that way it doesn't interfere with the racing, or the drivers championship, neither of which deserve to suffer as a result of this rule.
Even if the driving style caused the engine to fail?I don't see how anyone can separate the driver performance from the team performance. Without the driver the team goes nowhere and without the team the driver goes nowhere.
If you truly want everything to be down to the driver, have a look at a single make series. Even then setup plays a big part in it, so the team is there again.
skinny said:
engine failures should result in a loss of points for the constructors. that way it doesn't interfere with the racing, or the drivers championship, neither of which deserve to suffer as a result of this rule.
Indeed - but they are usually not making the lumps either and in this electronic age and heavily limited engines driver style do not really come into it - they are drive the same in these toy cars it is either peddal all the way down or braking. Not much skill in driving a modern f1 car, diferenec is largely due to the make of the vehicle.I only watch it for a RACE - which very rarely do you get - I could not give a stuff about the teams, and as a driver I would either.
It's all about drivers for me, i couldn't give a stuff if it's a ferrari or a ford that wins.
I want to see the best drivers competing against each other and I don't care if F1 is the pinnacle of technolgy or even speed or anything other than the best drivers.
Get rid of the constructors championship, it really holds no interest for me. Then you'd see Lewis and Alonso at each other for the whole of the race, how great would that be, not this manufactured half a race rubbish we get now.
You'd also get proper racing further down the grid instead of the b**llocks about "bringing the car home for the Team points".
Teams and sponsors would still be attracted to the sport, in fact more so because it would be far more of an exciting spectacle.
It's really not rocket science.
I want to see the best drivers competing against each other and I don't care if F1 is the pinnacle of technolgy or even speed or anything other than the best drivers.
Get rid of the constructors championship, it really holds no interest for me. Then you'd see Lewis and Alonso at each other for the whole of the race, how great would that be, not this manufactured half a race rubbish we get now.
You'd also get proper racing further down the grid instead of the b**llocks about "bringing the car home for the Team points".
Teams and sponsors would still be attracted to the sport, in fact more so because it would be far more of an exciting spectacle.
It's really not rocket science.
custardtart said:
It's all about drivers for me, i couldn't give a stuff if it's a ferrari or a ford that wins.
I want to see the best drivers competing against each other and I don't care if F1 is the pinnacle of technolgy or even speed or anything other than the best drivers.
Get rid of the constructors championship, it really holds no interest for me. Then you'd see Lewis and Alonso at each other for the whole of the race, how great would that be, not this manufactured half a race rubbish we get now.
You'd also get proper racing further down the grid instead of the b**llocks about "bringing the car home for the Team points".
Teams and sponsors would still be attracted to the sport, in fact more so because it would be far more of an exciting spectacle.
It's really not rocket science.
The problem would be that without the technological competition, you wouldn't get some of the biggest sponsors and best engineers, which would reduce the money in the sport, which would reduce to some of the drivers the attractiveness of the series, so you would no longer have one series in which all the best drivers competed.I want to see the best drivers competing against each other and I don't care if F1 is the pinnacle of technolgy or even speed or anything other than the best drivers.
Get rid of the constructors championship, it really holds no interest for me. Then you'd see Lewis and Alonso at each other for the whole of the race, how great would that be, not this manufactured half a race rubbish we get now.
You'd also get proper racing further down the grid instead of the b**llocks about "bringing the car home for the Team points".
Teams and sponsors would still be attracted to the sport, in fact more so because it would be far more of an exciting spectacle.
It's really not rocket science.
It would descend into an IRL/Champ Car sort of mess, which makes no one happy.
flemke said:
custardtart said:
It's all about drivers for me, i couldn't give a stuff if it's a ferrari or a ford that wins.
I want to see the best drivers competing against each other and I don't care if F1 is the pinnacle of technolgy or even speed or anything other than the best drivers.
Get rid of the constructors championship, it really holds no interest for me. Then you'd see Lewis and Alonso at each other for the whole of the race, how great would that be, not this manufactured half a race rubbish we get now.
You'd also get proper racing further down the grid instead of the b**llocks about "bringing the car home for the Team points".
Teams and sponsors would still be attracted to the sport, in fact more so because it would be far more of an exciting spectacle.
It's really not rocket science.
The problem would be that without the technological competition, you wouldn't get some of the biggest sponsors and best engineers, which would reduce the money in the sport, which would reduce to some of the drivers the attractiveness of the series, so you would no longer have one series in which all the best drivers competed.I want to see the best drivers competing against each other and I don't care if F1 is the pinnacle of technolgy or even speed or anything other than the best drivers.
Get rid of the constructors championship, it really holds no interest for me. Then you'd see Lewis and Alonso at each other for the whole of the race, how great would that be, not this manufactured half a race rubbish we get now.
You'd also get proper racing further down the grid instead of the b**llocks about "bringing the car home for the Team points".
Teams and sponsors would still be attracted to the sport, in fact more so because it would be far more of an exciting spectacle.
It's really not rocket science.
It would descend into an IRL/Champ Car sort of mess, which makes no one happy.
jellison said:
F1 racing IS NOT A TEAM EVENT
Go tell that to Mercedes, Ferrari, Toyota, Renault, Ford (in the past) and every other manufacturer.F1 is a team sport, that is why we have Championships for Constructors (the team) and Drivers.
That I do not have a problem with. The issue I have is that both cars score points and therefore if a team is in a strong position as were McLaren at the weekend, then they cool off their engines and force the drivers to hold station with 15 laps to go.
That is was really pisses me off, because for the first time this year, we actually had a fight on at the front of the race for the first 2 thirds of the race. Alonso was doing all he could to get past and it was great to watch. It's the last stint that ruined the whole show and In my view brings the sport into disripute.
If there was not this stupid two race ruling for engines, then McLaren would not have cooled off their engines, and if they only allowed one chassis to score for the constructors, then I would have hoped that they would have been happy to allow them to race to the end.
If they took each other off, then hard luck, that's motor racing and they have hopefully learned from it.
Max's idea that having a race engine last two races actually saves money is crazy. He and the FIA have introduced a host of rules to cut back on the amount of money used by the teams to help the lower placed teams, but has it worked? NO
The lower teams are still were they were before, the front running teams are now spending more today than they were say 10, even 5 years ago so why oh why is Max wanting to introduce a 5 race engine rule. The guys a complete idiot and is ruining the sporting aspect of the game.
I think the head of the FIA should only be allowed to stand for two terms. Max is dead wood and is killing the sport with these stupid ideas...
TheOriginalGT40 said:
[Max's idea that having a race engine last two races actually saves money is crazy. He and the FIA have introduced a host of rules to cut back on the amount of money used by the teams to help the lower placed teams, but has it worked? NO
The lower teams are still were they were before, the front running teams are now spending more today than they were say 10, even 5 years ago so why oh why is Max wanting to introduce a 5 race engine rule. The guys a complete idiot and is ruining the sporting aspect of the game.
I think the head of the FIA should only be allowed to stand for two terms. Max is dead wood and is killing the sport with these stupid ideas...
Actually Super Aguri are pissing all over Honda on a fraction of the budget. And likeswise with Williams and Toyota. So spending oodles of money does not equal success.The lower teams are still were they were before, the front running teams are now spending more today than they were say 10, even 5 years ago so why oh why is Max wanting to introduce a 5 race engine rule. The guys a complete idiot and is ruining the sporting aspect of the game.
I think the head of the FIA should only be allowed to stand for two terms. Max is dead wood and is killing the sport with these stupid ideas...
I agree that the two race rule is no longer necessary now we have the 19,000 rpm rule and it punishes drivers for something that is beyond their control.
One good thing about the manufacturers championship is that it forces teams to employ two good drivers (except Toyota who employ two bad ones) and to put out two competetive cars. Without it a lot of teams would go to one professional driver and one rich playboy "gentleman driver".
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