WRC season cut down...

[MrKipling43]

Just 12 events from 2009

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~4~id~150295.htm

[IrishDave]

i guess it's a good thing if it attracts more manufacturers, but i can't see how it will; If they can afford to do 12 rallies, surely they can do 16.
Changing the world rally cars to group N spec?

[tuffer]

IrishDave said:

i guess it's a good thing if it attracts more manufacturers, but i can't see how it will; If they can afford to do 12 rallies, surely they can do 16.
Changing the world rally cars to group N spec?

I bet the cost of those extra four Rallies runs into £M's for the major teams so knocking them off is a significant reduction (approx 25% !!!).

[Jungles]

IrishDave said:

i guess it's a good thing if it attracts more manufacturers, but i can't see how it will; If they can afford to do 12 rallies, surely they can do 16.
Changing the world rally cars to group N spec?

Perhaps a turbo-charged version of the S2000 spec.

The Australian Rally Championship has two S2000-spec Ford Focuses that is competitive with GrpN cars. Add the extra oomph with a turbo charger, and you have a class that is faster than the old GrpA, although admittedly slower than WRC.

What the WRC really needs though, is more coverage.

[loneranger]

Rally needs.
1) More power. The current cars are pathetic for a pinnacle motorsport.
2) RWD.(or FWD) The 4X4 stuff is just awful at so many levels.
3) N/A. Turbochrgers are the devil's spawn in a rally car.

It needs to be made cheaper to compete.
So a simple formula.
Say, a minimum weight and a fixed inlet orifice to govern power/weight ratio and allow many engine types.
Minimum production run of base car to prevent specials.
No esoteric materials.
No silly electronics.
Steel brakes.

Then we would see driver skill!!!
This would be a sport worth watching unlike the current circus.

[MrKipling43]

loneranger said:

More power. The current cars are pathetic for a pinnacle motorsport.

Only 300bhp, but they do have 600+ft/lbs torque - so they're not exactly shy.

loneranger said:

Minimum production run of base car to prevent specials.

Already in place - they're just allowed a lot of mods.

loneranger said:

No esoteric materials.

Already banned.

loneranger said:

No silly electronics.

Active diffs were banned last year. They don't have TC.

loneranger said:

Steel brakes.

Brakes in WRC are already Ferrous

loneranger said:

Then we would see driver skill!!!

Oh what, and Loeb's a numpty is he? The current WRC cars are already tough to drive (they're designed to go quick in a straight line, not around bends really) - they're much quicker than the Group B motors.

Any other suggestions to revolutionise rallying?

[Calorus]

tuffer said:

IrishDave said:

i guess it's a good thing if it attracts more manufacturers, but i can't see how it will; If they can afford to do 12 rallies, surely they can do 16.
Changing the world rally cars to group N spec?

I bet the cost of those extra four Rallies runs into £M's for the major teams so knocking them off is a significant reduction (approx 25% !!!).

Nothing like 25% - same wage figures, same development costs, same marketing spends, but smaller advertings revenues, and smaller travel costs.

[tuffer]

Calorus said:

tuffer said:

IrishDave said:

i guess it's a good thing if it attracts more manufacturers, but i can't see how it will; If they can afford to do 12 rallies, surely they can do 16.
Changing the world rally cars to group N spec?

I bet the cost of those extra four Rallies runs into £M's for the major teams so knocking them off is a significant reduction (approx 25% !!!).

Nothing like 25% - same wage figures, same development costs, same marketing spends, but smaller advertings revenues, and smaller travel costs.

Wage figures maybe (except part time staff or local hires), Development costs no (they do not develope one car for the entire year so cars may be developed just for some of those rounds which may now be dropped. Marketting can be dependant upon country visited so money may be saved in this area. Big reduction in travel costs, especially if they drop some of the long haul rounds (Australia, New Zealand & Argentina). I also said Approx 25%, I bet it would not be far off.

[loneranger]

MrKipling43 said:

loneranger said:

More power. The current cars are pathetic for a pinnacle motorsport.

Only 300bhp, but they do have 600+ft/lbs torque - so they're not exactly shy.

loneranger said:

Minimum production run of base car to prevent specials.

Already in place - they're just allowed a lot of mods.

loneranger said:

No esoteric materials.

Already banned.

loneranger said:

No silly electronics.

Active diffs were banned last year. They don't have TC.

loneranger said:

Steel brakes.

Brakes in WRC are already Ferrous

loneranger said:

Then we would see driver skill!!!

Oh what, and Loeb's a numpty is he? The current WRC cars are already tough to drive (they're designed to go quick in a straight line, not around bends really) - they're much quicker than the Group B motors.

Any other suggestions to revolutionise rallying?

These are my suggestions:

1) More power. The current cars are pathetic for a pinnacle motorsport.
2) RWD.(or FWD) The 4X4 stuff is just awful at so many levels.
3) N/A. Turbochrgers are the devil's spawn in a rally car.

Which, by the way, is what Colin McRae has suggested as being the best way forward. He may well know what he is talking about.

The rest of the list (which you were so scathing about) is just a part of the implementation. I didn't say whether or not the current formula was using them. I was saying that a future formula following 1 to 3 above should.

Try reading properly in future.
Number 2) is the most important element.
I can just imagine the wail of Stuttgart flat sixes in the forest.

[Calorus]

tuffer said:

Calorus said:

tuffer said:

IrishDave said:

i guess it's a good thing if it attracts more manufacturers, but i can't see how it will; If they can afford to do 12 rallies, surely they can do 16.
Changing the world rally cars to group N spec?

I bet the cost of those extra four Rallies runs into £M's for the major teams so knocking them off is a significant reduction (approx 25% !!!).

Nothing like 25% - same wage figures, same development costs, same marketing spends, but smaller advertings revenues, and smaller travel costs.

Wage figures maybe (except part time staff or local hires), Development costs no (they do not develope one car for the entire year so cars may be developed just for some of those rounds which may now be dropped. Marketting can be dependant upon country visited so money may be saved in this area. Big reduction in travel costs, especially if they drop some of the long haul rounds (Australia, New Zealand & Argentina). I also said Approx 25%, I bet it would not be far off.

No, they do develop all summer and all winter. The rounds most likely to be dropped are ones near others which means perhaps one of OZ and NZ, a few EU ones etc. there is absolutely no way it can amount to even nearly 25%.

Facilties, Computer software, hardware and development. Advertising, facility based staff, FIA crash testing and homologation, wind tunnel time, partner support, driver development programmes, testing and a huge amount more besides would have no change are a result of a shorter season, not to mention the fairly obvious fact that every penny of saving would simply be pumped back in to development, anyway.

[Calorus]

MrKipling43 said:

loneranger said:

No esoteric materials.

Already banned.

Esoteric materials?

[loneranger]

Calorus said:

MrKipling43 said:

loneranger said:

No esoteric materials.

Already banned.

Esoteric materials?

Maraging steel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maraging_steel
Titanium.
Exotic alloys.
Aramids.
Carbon.
Nanotechnology.

etc.

[anonymous-user]

loneranger said:

Rally needs.
1) More power. The current cars are pathetic for a pinnacle motorsport.
2) RWD.(or FWD) The 4X4 stuff is just awful at so many levels.
3) N/A. Turbochrgers are the devil's spawn in a rally car.

It needs to be made cheaper to compete.
So a simple formula.
Say, a minimum weight and a fixed inlet orifice to govern power/weight ratio and allow many engine types.
Minimum production run of base car to prevent specials.
No esoteric materials.
No silly electronics.
Steel brakes.

Then we would see driver skill!!!
This would be a sport worth watching unlike the current circus.

1) Never going to happen following the demise of GroupB and it's fatalities, they get away with running aprox 330BHP and 550lbft at the moment with a nod and a wink of a suposed 300BHP limiting 34mm restrictor.
2) FWD is pants on so many levels, RWD is good to watch and drive, as is AWD.
3) You've obviously never driven a turbocharged GroupA/WRC spec car, they are fabulous fun. You would need a big capacity NA engine to come close to what a Turbo motor can provide in this arena.

The whole point behind the current WRC car regulations was to remove the need for the manufacturers to produce a production model to homologate, as they used to do with the GroupA rules. Going to a GroupN based series will kill it dead as you would be left with a few Evo's and Impreza's competing, as is currently the case in GroupN.

What is needed is a rally car along the lines of what Andy Burton has built, with a mid engined 300BHP NA V6 or V8 engined special with AWD, along the groupB rules but with no turbos and a 10Krpm rev limit, with minimum spaceframe specs for safety. Those cars would look and sound incredible, yet wont cost the earth to produce a competitive car and all manufacturers could make one fairly easily.

[loneranger]

johnfelstead said:

loneranger said:

Rally needs.
1) More power. The current cars are pathetic for a pinnacle motorsport.
2) RWD.(or FWD) The 4X4 stuff is just awful at so many levels.
3) N/A. Turbochrgers are the devil's spawn in a rally car.

It needs to be made cheaper to compete.
So a simple formula.
Say, a minimum weight and a fixed inlet orifice to govern power/weight ratio and allow many engine types.
Minimum production run of base car to prevent specials.
No esoteric materials.
No silly electronics.
Steel brakes.

Then we would see driver skill!!!
This would be a sport worth watching unlike the current circus.

1) Never going to happen following the demise of GroupB and it's fatalities, they get away with running aprox 330BHP and 550lbft at the moment with a nod and a wink of a suposed 300BHP limiting 34mm restrictor.
2) FWD is pants on so many levels, RWD is good to watch and drive, as is AWD.
3) You've obviously never driven a turbocharged GroupA/WRC spec car, they are fabulous fun. You would need a big capacity NA engine to come close to what a Turbo motor can provide in this arena.

The whole point behind the current WRC car regulations was to remove the need for the manufacturers to produce a production model to homologate, as they used to do with the GroupA rules. Going to a GroupN based series will kill it dead as you would be left with a few Evo's and Impreza's competing, as is currently the case in GroupN.

What is needed is a rally car along the lines of what Andy Burton has built, with a mid engined 300BHP NA V6 or V8 engined special with AWD, along the groupB rules but with no turbos and a 10Krpm rev limit, with minimum spaceframe specs for safety. Those cars would look and sound incredible, yet wont cost the earth to produce a competitive car and all manufacturers could make one fairly easily.

Sounds good.
I still prefer RWD.
Better demonstrates the skill of the driver and makes a better spectacle to attract the public back.

[Skyedriver]

Group B was fantastic but the fatalities were too much to accept.
Speak to the drivers (or read their stories) when they dropped back to the 300hp limit they felt restricted and underpowered and didn't enjoy the sport anymore.
The current WRC has too few manufacturers, too few top ranking drivers, too many events, too many mickey mouse (super)stages.

Pentti A in a Chevette HSR
Jimmy Mc in a Manta
Walter R
Henri T in a Sunbeam
David L in a Metro 6R4
Hannu M in an Escort
Stig B ditto
Timo Mc ditto
and Roger Albert C in Cossack Hairspray....

Stratos at full chat
Fiat 131 ditto
Tony P trying in a TR8



just a few memories of a retired spectator

[Calorus]

Skyedriver said:

Group B was fantastic but the fatalities were too much to accept.
Speak to the drivers (or read their stories) when they dropped back to the 300hp limit they felt restricted and underpowered and didn't enjoy the sport anymore.
The current WRC has too few manufacturers, too few top ranking drivers, too many events, too many mickey mouse (super)stages.

Pentti A in a Chevette HSR
Jimmy Mc in a Manta
Walter R
Henri T in a Sunbeam
David L in a Metro 6R4
Hannu M in an Escort
Stig B ditto
Timo Mc ditto
and Roger Albert C in Cossack Hairspray....

Stratos at full chat
Fiat 131 ditto
Tony P trying in a TR8



just a few memories of a retired spectator

My money says a Citroën C4 would do a Delta S4.

[Skyedriver]

Calorus said:

Skyedriver said:

Group B was fantastic but the fatalities were too much to accept.
Speak to the drivers (or read their stories) when they dropped back to the 300hp limit they felt restricted and underpowered and didn't enjoy the sport anymore.
The current WRC has too few manufacturers, too few top ranking drivers, too many events, too many mickey mouse (super)stages.

Pentti A in a Chevette HSR
Jimmy Mc in a Manta
Walter R
Henri T in a Sunbeam
David L in a Metro 6R4
Hannu M in an Escort
Stig B ditto
Timo Mc ditto
and Roger Albert C in Cossack Hairspray....

Stratos at full chat
Fiat 131 ditto
Tony P trying in a TR8



just a few memories of a retired spectator

My money says a Citroën C4 would do a Delta S4.

Maybe but would it look as spectacular

[TheOriginalGT40]

Skyedriver said:

Group B was fantastic but the fatalities were too much to accept.

Would it be fair to say that spectators were slightly more out of control in the days of the Group B cars. Watch in-car footage today and they tend to be a little more controlled, yes still very close to the action but at least not 100's all standing in the road to cheer on their favourite drivers.

I remember when I marshalled on a couple of regional rallies in the late 80's that trying to control the crowds was the hardest thing to do. You'd clearly state to the crowd if there was an area that was a no-go due to their own safety, but you'd still get some ignoring you. There was an accident in the forest where we were marshalling when a car ran wide. It was not the fault of the driver, the spectator who was hit (thankfully not seriously hurt) was told on several occasions that day not to stand there.

I think if they can some how enforce a controlled audience then why not bring back the Group B spec cars...

[Jungles]

With today's combination of better spectator safety and safer rally cars, the WRC could probably afford to up the pace of their category a bit.

Raising the official power limit to 400 BHP or even 500 BHP wouldn't be too bad an idea. Modern WRC cars could easily produce upwards of 600 BHP if there was no inlet restriction.

And if I may suggest a potentially controversial idea... get rid of one of the support classes: P-WRC or J-WRC. Personally I think the J-WRC should stay and P-WRC should be scrapped. The J-WRC is a good proving ground for young talent, and quite popular among manufacturers, but the P-WRC has no manufacturer involvement and the standard of driving is much lower than J-WRC in my opinion.

If they get rid of one of the support classes, it would free up some space in the field for more local/national/club entries. Rallying needs better exposure, and IMHO a good long-term way to do that is to get more people in grass-roots motorsport into rallying. I'm sure club rally enthusiasts would love a chance to run in a WRC event.

Edited by Jungles on Friday 29th June 14:26

[Calorus]

Jungles said:

With today's combination of better spectator safety and safer rally cars, the WRC could probably afford to up the pace of their category a bit.

Raising the official power limit to 400 BHP or even 500 BHP wouldn't be too bad an idea. Modern WRC cars could easily produce upwards of 600 BHP if there was no inlet restriction.

And if I may suggest a potentially controversial idea... get rid of one of the support classes: P-WRC or J-WRC. Personally I think the J-WRC should stay and P-WRC should be scrapped. The J-WRC is a good proving ground for young talent, and quite popular among manufacturers, but the P-WRC has no manufacturer involvement and the standard of driving is much lower than J-WRC in my opinion.

Power restrictions are fundementally pointless. A rally driver will go as fast as he feels safe to. The car can always go fast. The ability of a car is to give the driver control to go faster, and the power to do so. The ability of a driver is to extract the maximum that he feels safe to.

It reminds me of the comments on a Muddy Turkish rally last year: "It wasn't safe out there".

Eh? If it's not 'Safe' then slow down.