So what sanction will McLaren get today?
Discussion
If this case were decided by the FIA purely on the merits, it would be a first for them.
We know that they have, if only on the very rarest of occasions, seemed to be concerned about the interests of one particular team. That will inevitably be a factor.
Then we have the old "Send a message" excuse: Treat a defendant more harshly than he really deserves because of the advertising impact on others.
And let's not forget that - shock! - Ferrari have just today tried to poison the waters by declaring:
"The difference between the two teams [in the world championship standings] is so close that it is likely that McLaren's superior number of points is a consequence of its chief designer having the Ferrari documents," Ferrari's representatives write.
I don't know what will happen, but if anyone here thinks that McLaren will get a fair, unbiased hearing, I'd like to sell him a nice little bridge. It runs across the River Thames, been there for yonks, quite a tourist attraction, and I'll sell it to you cheap. It'll have to be a cash deal, mind...
We know that they have, if only on the very rarest of occasions, seemed to be concerned about the interests of one particular team. That will inevitably be a factor.
Then we have the old "Send a message" excuse: Treat a defendant more harshly than he really deserves because of the advertising impact on others.
And let's not forget that - shock! - Ferrari have just today tried to poison the waters by declaring:
"The difference between the two teams [in the world championship standings] is so close that it is likely that McLaren's superior number of points is a consequence of its chief designer having the Ferrari documents," Ferrari's representatives write.
I don't know what will happen, but if anyone here thinks that McLaren will get a fair, unbiased hearing, I'd like to sell him a nice little bridge. It runs across the River Thames, been there for yonks, quite a tourist attraction, and I'll sell it to you cheap. It'll have to be a cash deal, mind...
Were Toyota penalised when a Ferrari IP issue blew up a while back? I'm not sure anyone complained to the FIA about it, but then again, IIRC they didn't see fit to intervene either.
So far as the result of the hearing is concerned, I think alot of it will come down to the precise definition of "possession" adopted by the FIA. The press release alleges "...McLaren Mercedes had unauthorised possession of documents..." so I think the argument will be over whether Coughlan's possession of the documents constitutes Mclaren also being deemed to vicariously be in possession of it. McLaren will no doubt be arguing that Coughlan was acting 'on a frolic of his own' and therefore effectively was outside the remit of his employment.
I would hope that if there is to be a penalty it doesn't affect the championship tables, as we are shaping up to have a good title chase this year. However, as Ferrari are behind on points at the moment, the conspiracy-theory section of my brain is saying that their championship campaign may receive an unexpected boost by the end of the day
[k]
So far as the result of the hearing is concerned, I think alot of it will come down to the precise definition of "possession" adopted by the FIA. The press release alleges "...McLaren Mercedes had unauthorised possession of documents..." so I think the argument will be over whether Coughlan's possession of the documents constitutes Mclaren also being deemed to vicariously be in possession of it. McLaren will no doubt be arguing that Coughlan was acting 'on a frolic of his own' and therefore effectively was outside the remit of his employment.
I would hope that if there is to be a penalty it doesn't affect the championship tables, as we are shaping up to have a good title chase this year. However, as Ferrari are behind on points at the moment, the conspiracy-theory section of my brain is saying that their championship campaign may receive an unexpected boost by the end of the day
[k]
[k]arl said:
However, as Ferrari are behind on points at the moment, the conspiracy-theory section of my brain is saying that their championship campaign may receive an unexpected boost by the end of the day
How cynical of you! And I suppose you don't believe in the Easter Bunny either.
flemke said:
And let's not forget that - shock! - Ferrari have just today tried to poison the waters by declaring:
"The difference between the two teams [in the world championship standings] is so close that it is likely that McLaren's superior number of points is a consequence of its chief designer having the Ferrari documents," Ferrari's representatives write.
I don't know what will happen, but if anyone here thinks that McLaren will get a fair, unbiased hearing, I'd like to sell him a nice little bridge. It runs across the River Thames, been there for yonks, quite a tourist attraction, and I'll sell it to you cheap. It'll have to be a cash deal, mind...
I think Ferrari and their seemingly constant leakage to the press and general dirt throwing should bring about some sort of sanction as I feel that what they are doing is not good for the image of the sport. At least Mclaren are not chucking dirt about."The difference between the two teams [in the world championship standings] is so close that it is likely that McLaren's superior number of points is a consequence of its chief designer having the Ferrari documents," Ferrari's representatives write.
I don't know what will happen, but if anyone here thinks that McLaren will get a fair, unbiased hearing, I'd like to sell him a nice little bridge. It runs across the River Thames, been there for yonks, quite a tourist attraction, and I'll sell it to you cheap. It'll have to be a cash deal, mind...
I need a new bridge, I'll give you a tenner for it if you can deliver.
Cheers
D
davidd said:
I think Ferrari and their seemingly constant leakage to the press and general dirt throwing should bring about some sort of sanction as I feel that what they are doing is not good for the image of the sport.
The more they do this, the more I'm inclined to think that the leak was related to documented cheating rather than industrial espionage.
I'd say that Mclaren are going to get a hiding. All the FIA have to prove is that Mclaren did contravene Article 151c. On the basis that Mclaren pay Coughlan to work for them...he "is" Mclaren.
Mclaren's barrister/s will try to prove that the fact that he and Stepney had jointly approached Honda is proof that the document was acquired purely for their benefit and not to benefit Mclaren.
All IMHO of course.
Sadly, the fact that the performance differential between the two teams was narrowed due to the effect of Ferrari's windtunnel problems, McLaren's bridge wing, the change in nature of the circuits and for all I know the weight of that fancy new paint job on the red cars are not what is being reviewed in Paris today.
Will the drivers lose points?...one would think/hope not. 151c is all about the team,not the drivers.
Mclaren's barrister/s will try to prove that the fact that he and Stepney had jointly approached Honda is proof that the document was acquired purely for their benefit and not to benefit Mclaren.
All IMHO of course.
Sadly, the fact that the performance differential between the two teams was narrowed due to the effect of Ferrari's windtunnel problems, McLaren's bridge wing, the change in nature of the circuits and for all I know the weight of that fancy new paint job on the red cars are not what is being reviewed in Paris today.
Will the drivers lose points?...one would think/hope not. 151c is all about the team,not the drivers.
flemke said:
[k]arl said:
However, as Ferrari are behind on points at the moment, the conspiracy-theory section of my brain is saying that their championship campaign may receive an unexpected boost by the end of the day
How cynical of you! And I suppose you don't believe in the Easter Bunny either.
[k]
[k]arl said:
flemke said:
[k]arl said:
However, as Ferrari are behind on points at the moment, the conspiracy-theory section of my brain is saying that their championship campaign may receive an unexpected boost by the end of the day
How cynical of you! And I suppose you don't believe in the Easter Bunny either.
[k]
I understood for whom your rolleyes were meant - the devious, disingenuous scumbags in Paris. As my late grandmother would have said about them, "They're so crooked, they couldn't lie in bed straight."
I appreciated your post and was trying to second it.
Cheers.
flemke said:
[k]arl said:
flemke said:
[k]arl said:
However, as Ferrari are behind on points at the moment, the conspiracy-theory section of my brain is saying that their championship campaign may receive an unexpected boost by the end of the day
How cynical of you! And I suppose you don't believe in the Easter Bunny either.
[k]
I understood for whom your rolleyes were meant - the devious, disingenuous scumbags in Paris. As my late grandmother would have said about them, "They're so crooked, they couldn't lie in bed straight."
I appreciated your post and was trying to second it.
Cheers.
Flemke - I'm sorry that you thought you had to be sorry. Sorry. 
The perils of communicating without the usual non-verbal cues I guess 
Williamp - you damn well ought to be sorry. Have you seen the state of the weather!
Back to the FIA, Ferrari and McLaren, there are some interesting articles on the Autosport website today. There is an analysis of the case and explanation of the procedure here as well as a comedy article here in which Ferrari appear to insinuate that the only way McLaren could have a faster car is by reason of the insider information. Does anyone know if a certain former poster in this forum has obtained employment in Ferrari's press office?
[k]
The perils of communicating without the usual non-verbal cues I guess Williamp - you damn well ought to be sorry. Have you seen the state of the weather!
Back to the FIA, Ferrari and McLaren, there are some interesting articles on the Autosport website today. There is an analysis of the case and explanation of the procedure here as well as a comedy article here in which Ferrari appear to insinuate that the only way McLaren could have a faster car is by reason of the insider information. Does anyone know if a certain former poster in this forum has obtained employment in Ferrari's press office?
[k]
rubystone said:
I'd say that Mclaren are going to get a hiding. All the FIA have to prove is that Mclaren did contravene Article 151c. On the basis that Mclaren pay Coughlan to work for them...he "is" Mclaren.
Mclaren's barrister/s will try to prove that the fact that he and Stepney had jointly approached Honda is proof that the document was acquired purely for their benefit and not to benefit Mclaren.
All IMHO of course.
Sadly, the fact that the performance differential between the two teams was narrowed due to the effect of Ferrari's windtunnel problems, McLaren's bridge wing, the change in nature of the circuits and for all I know the weight of that fancy new paint job on the red cars are not what is being reviewed in Paris today.
Will the drivers lose points?...one would think/hope not. 151c is all about the team,not the drivers.
The drivers work for the team... they "are" McLaren. If their car has been improved in anyway by or due to the Ferrari data then McLaren can't run that car this year at all surely? Mclaren's barrister/s will try to prove that the fact that he and Stepney had jointly approached Honda is proof that the document was acquired purely for their benefit and not to benefit Mclaren.
All IMHO of course.
Sadly, the fact that the performance differential between the two teams was narrowed due to the effect of Ferrari's windtunnel problems, McLaren's bridge wing, the change in nature of the circuits and for all I know the weight of that fancy new paint job on the red cars are not what is being reviewed in Paris today.
Will the drivers lose points?...one would think/hope not. 151c is all about the team,not the drivers.
Slso, I think Ron is honest yes, but Ron is not the entire team.
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