The Reality of Motorsport and Noise
Discussion
I frequently read in this forum and others opinions from people who lambast circuits and local councils about not having enough events.
Most of our circuits run under restricted planning consents due to noise generated.
Noise is part of the appeal of racing cars but it is also the principal complaint of non-believers.
I am a fan but I have also been in a friends garden in West Kingsdown when the Boss F1 cars were testing and believe me it wasnt a place to hold a genteel conversation over a cup of tea!
Likewise playing cricket 3 miles away during a 1000km sports car race.
Funnily enough there are those out there with either no interest in Motorsport or indeed have strong objections to the noise etc which no-one can deny is intrusive at times.
We have all got to live together and in the case of Rockingham for example - unlike perhaps Brands or Combe and their local residents - the objectors were already there when the place was built!
The following all have restricted planning and/or vocal anti groups:-
Thruxton
Lydden
Rockingham
Brands Hatch
Oulton Park
Castle Combe
Pembrey
Silverstone (unbelievably!)
and probably the others too.
We don't help our cause by being antagonistic to those who object to us or by competitors deliberately flouting the noise regulations.
The MSA has a good system of noise testing - the levels of which I believe are agreed at Government levels - and it has been proved that leaders of action groups such as at Brands in the past had told residents there was no noise testing at all in the hope of encouraging dissent.
I have been told that the Environmental Health people at Canterbury were unaware of MSA noise testing and when trying to act on a complaint from a neighbour at Lydden were impressed with the meticulous records kept which gave the official the chance to reject the complaint.
It appears nonetheless that some many in our sport are determined to bury their heads in the sand with some kind of assumption that all is OK to make as much noise as we like whenever we want and to ignore local agreements.
I believe JP is wrong to try to take on his neighbours - at Brands in particular where I have heard that MSV is starting to lose the support of hitherto supporters by not just having more high profile noisy meetings but also pushing the envelope of midweek track usage to a greater extent then ever before.
Business is business and they no doubt need the track days and so on to fit the business plan
However, it has been proved at Combe especially that you can work within tightly controlled and monitored restrictions if common sense is applied.
Noise isnt a problem that will go away - quite the opposite - the main job every fan or official or other interested party has is to ensure there are no further restrictions on our sport.
Most of our circuits run under restricted planning consents due to noise generated.
Noise is part of the appeal of racing cars but it is also the principal complaint of non-believers.
I am a fan but I have also been in a friends garden in West Kingsdown when the Boss F1 cars were testing and believe me it wasnt a place to hold a genteel conversation over a cup of tea!
Likewise playing cricket 3 miles away during a 1000km sports car race.
Funnily enough there are those out there with either no interest in Motorsport or indeed have strong objections to the noise etc which no-one can deny is intrusive at times.
We have all got to live together and in the case of Rockingham for example - unlike perhaps Brands or Combe and their local residents - the objectors were already there when the place was built!
The following all have restricted planning and/or vocal anti groups:-
Thruxton
Lydden
Rockingham
Brands Hatch
Oulton Park
Castle Combe
Pembrey
Silverstone (unbelievably!)
and probably the others too.
We don't help our cause by being antagonistic to those who object to us or by competitors deliberately flouting the noise regulations.
The MSA has a good system of noise testing - the levels of which I believe are agreed at Government levels - and it has been proved that leaders of action groups such as at Brands in the past had told residents there was no noise testing at all in the hope of encouraging dissent.
I have been told that the Environmental Health people at Canterbury were unaware of MSA noise testing and when trying to act on a complaint from a neighbour at Lydden were impressed with the meticulous records kept which gave the official the chance to reject the complaint.
It appears nonetheless that some many in our sport are determined to bury their heads in the sand with some kind of assumption that all is OK to make as much noise as we like whenever we want and to ignore local agreements.
I believe JP is wrong to try to take on his neighbours - at Brands in particular where I have heard that MSV is starting to lose the support of hitherto supporters by not just having more high profile noisy meetings but also pushing the envelope of midweek track usage to a greater extent then ever before.
Business is business and they no doubt need the track days and so on to fit the business plan
However, it has been proved at Combe especially that you can work within tightly controlled and monitored restrictions if common sense is applied.
Noise isnt a problem that will go away - quite the opposite - the main job every fan or official or other interested party has is to ensure there are no further restrictions on our sport.
I think you're wrong to have a go at supporters of motorsport - in the case of Brands for example the circuit was there long before the housing. If you don't like motorsport, don't live there. It's as simple as that.
In fact I'd happily live round the corner from Brands Hatch...only I can't afford to, so the complaints about house values suffering is a lie, too.
Interesting point about the cricket match because I wouldn't want a cricket ball smashing my windscreen if I was in the pub opposite the village green, yet village cricket is OK. People who live near soccer grounds have to put up with traffic disruption and violent acts, yet that's OK.
Then we have the example of Donington - someone told me a story recently that they were being lectured by a marshal about their car exceeding the noise limit but had to pause halfway through as he could not be heard above the plane that was taking off at East Midlands airport next door...
Noise limits at circuits are getting far too restrictive, the case of Castle Combe proves this and it's not just in the UK - look at the recent ridiculous ruling at Monza. SO don't be surprised if we aren't going to sit down and take it.
In fact I'd happily live round the corner from Brands Hatch...only I can't afford to, so the complaints about house values suffering is a lie, too.
Interesting point about the cricket match because I wouldn't want a cricket ball smashing my windscreen if I was in the pub opposite the village green, yet village cricket is OK. People who live near soccer grounds have to put up with traffic disruption and violent acts, yet that's OK.
Then we have the example of Donington - someone told me a story recently that they were being lectured by a marshal about their car exceeding the noise limit but had to pause halfway through as he could not be heard above the plane that was taking off at East Midlands airport next door...
Noise limits at circuits are getting far too restrictive, the case of Castle Combe proves this and it's not just in the UK - look at the recent ridiculous ruling at Monza. SO don't be surprised if we aren't going to sit down and take it.
Your wrong.
Combe is being killed by people who live no-where near the circuit and just object to motorsport.
It's unknown whether it will ever host the GT race again due to ever tightening regulation - even though the complaints are only 2 residents which have lived in the area less than 3 years.
Its no different to moving near an airport and then complaining about the planes!
Combe is being killed by people who live no-where near the circuit and just object to motorsport.
It's unknown whether it will ever host the GT race again due to ever tightening regulation - even though the complaints are only 2 residents which have lived in the area less than 3 years.
Its no different to moving near an airport and then complaining about the planes!
People will turn against motorsport sooner or later. They'll only see it as pollution, be it Noise or emissions, and not a sport. The fact is that yes, motorsport is noisy but so is a plane. Top level motorsport is at the pinicle of engine development, thanks to Formula 1 they have refined the technology and now use it on the manufacturer's production cars.
I don't know if this has been posted on this forum before but here it is again if you haven't seen it:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display...
I don't know if this has been posted on this forum before but here it is again if you haven't seen it:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display...
I hear what you are saying but disagree.
You don't by a house near Heathrow and then wonder where the noise is coming from. In a large number of cases the 'victims' knew full well that they were moving next to a race track (a number of the houses were tied accommodation) and one of the reasons their 4 bed as the same price as the 3 bed 5 miles down the road was...
Prescott hill climb was iirc the first place to be the victim of the 'complainers' in fact a campaign lead by a retired army type who had a problem with the occasional noise this caused after buying a house in the area. Once Prescott had been restricted the gentleman in question then moved house.... To one of those alongside the Brands GP track, guess what he did next?
When it comes to Rockingham i know that this argument holds no water and will be the first to admit so. Then again it was an old quarry site. Trust me they aren't quiet and due to their nature tend to be in use far more than the race track was. Another interesting bit of gossip was that shortly after the track opened there was a rash of complaints from neighbours about the noise - despite the fact that there weren't any cars or bikes using the circuit on the dates, let alone the times they stated in their letters of complaint.
As for how far MSV push the limits of their permitted operational hours I can tell you that the flag on the last race of the day will ALWAYS fall between 6:25 and 6:28.
The fact that they are permitted to run until a certain time on certain days is agreed. That they are utilising that time to it’s full shouldn’t be a reason for castigation.
In the case of your friends whilst I appreciate that all might not be quite as quite as they would hope that fact remains that they chose to live there. I would never even consider the purchase of a house next to a major football stadium for what sounds like that same reasons your friends should never have bought their house.
You don't by a house near Heathrow and then wonder where the noise is coming from. In a large number of cases the 'victims' knew full well that they were moving next to a race track (a number of the houses were tied accommodation) and one of the reasons their 4 bed as the same price as the 3 bed 5 miles down the road was...
Prescott hill climb was iirc the first place to be the victim of the 'complainers' in fact a campaign lead by a retired army type who had a problem with the occasional noise this caused after buying a house in the area. Once Prescott had been restricted the gentleman in question then moved house.... To one of those alongside the Brands GP track, guess what he did next?
When it comes to Rockingham i know that this argument holds no water and will be the first to admit so. Then again it was an old quarry site. Trust me they aren't quiet and due to their nature tend to be in use far more than the race track was. Another interesting bit of gossip was that shortly after the track opened there was a rash of complaints from neighbours about the noise - despite the fact that there weren't any cars or bikes using the circuit on the dates, let alone the times they stated in their letters of complaint.
As for how far MSV push the limits of their permitted operational hours I can tell you that the flag on the last race of the day will ALWAYS fall between 6:25 and 6:28.
The fact that they are permitted to run until a certain time on certain days is agreed. That they are utilising that time to it’s full shouldn’t be a reason for castigation.
In the case of your friends whilst I appreciate that all might not be quite as quite as they would hope that fact remains that they chose to live there. I would never even consider the purchase of a house next to a major football stadium for what sounds like that same reasons your friends should never have bought their house.
I believe that Kent Hardy is right and I live about a mile or so from Donington. The noise to me is a pleasure but to the vast majority it is a massive intrusion. I am also affected by the airport noise but then I moved there so I don't moan, however, motorsport is an easy target for the environmentalists and the long duration of the engine drone can get people down just as much as the short duration but louder noise of an aircraft taking off or landing. (And believe me, the locals moan about the airport, too)
Motorsport needs to start showing its green credentials in order to survive, and indeed grow, and that includes understanding, and taking steps to combat noise issues. If motorsport takes an active role in reducing perceived noise pollution rather than doing an ostritch impression it may well achieve wider popularity & support & we may end up with more meetings and fewer objections at Combe, Rockingham etc, or even some developments of new circuits (eg the Perranporth one in Cornwall).
As an aside, I recently went to a horse race meeting at Uttoxeter as guest. Boring to me but the place was packed. I asked some of the people with me if they would consider going motor racing instead and the majority said no.....partly because it was too noisy!
As motorsport enthusiasts we are in the minority and our sport is seen as a noise & traffic nuisance that gives too little back. We have to be responsible or else we will face greater difficulties in the future.
Motorsport needs to start showing its green credentials in order to survive, and indeed grow, and that includes understanding, and taking steps to combat noise issues. If motorsport takes an active role in reducing perceived noise pollution rather than doing an ostritch impression it may well achieve wider popularity & support & we may end up with more meetings and fewer objections at Combe, Rockingham etc, or even some developments of new circuits (eg the Perranporth one in Cornwall).
As an aside, I recently went to a horse race meeting at Uttoxeter as guest. Boring to me but the place was packed. I asked some of the people with me if they would consider going motor racing instead and the majority said no.....partly because it was too noisy!
As motorsport enthusiasts we are in the minority and our sport is seen as a noise & traffic nuisance that gives too little back. We have to be responsible or else we will face greater difficulties in the future.
t.kenthardy said:
The MSA has a good system of noise testing - the levels of which I believe are agreed at Government levels - and it has been proved that leaders of action groups such as at Brands in the past had told residents there was no noise testing at all in the hope of encouraging dissent.
I have been told that the Environmental Health people at Canterbury were unaware of MSA noise testing and when trying to act on a complaint from a neighbour at Lydden were impressed with the meticulous records kept which gave the official the chance to reject the complaint.
I forgot to say that there is some concern in the two clubs that I am a member of about the accuracy of noise testing at a number of circuits. Noise testing results from one circuit often differ significantly from noise tests at another (for both saloons & single seater to my knowledge). When this was pointed out to a Clerk of the Course at a meeting I was competing at he replied that the noise meters were tested annually by MSV so must be right. Well, I am not a noise and vibration specialist (but my wife is) & I can tell you that any testing result should be considered invalid unless the meter has been calibrtaed immediately before the test takes place. The wide variation between noise results for the same cars at different venues should be a major mcause for concern, particularly if these results are being used to defend our activities.I have been told that the Environmental Health people at Canterbury were unaware of MSA noise testing and when trying to act on a complaint from a neighbour at Lydden were impressed with the meticulous records kept which gave the official the chance to reject the complaint.
andy97 said:
I believe that Kent Hardy is right and I live about a mile or so from Donington. The noise to me is a pleasure but to the vast majority it is a massive intrusion. I am also affected by the airport noise but then I moved there so I don't moan, however, motorsport is an easy target for the environmentalists and the long duration of the engine drone can get people down just as much as the short duration but louder noise of an aircraft taking off or landing. (And believe me, the locals moan about the airport, too)
Motorsport needs to start showing its green credentials in order to survive, and indeed grow, and that includes understanding, and taking steps to combat noise issues. If motorsport takes an active role in reducing perceived noise pollution rather than doing an ostritch impression it may well achieve wider popularity & support & we may end up with more meetings and fewer objections at Combe, Rockingham etc, or even some developments of new circuits (eg the Perranporth one in Cornwall).
As an aside, I recently went to a horse race meeting at Uttoxeter as guest. Boring to me but the place was packed. I asked some of the people with me if they would consider going motor racing instead and the majority said no.....partly because it was too noisy!
As motorsport enthusiasts we are in the minority and our sport is seen as a noise & traffic nuisance that gives too little back. We have to be responsible or else we will face greater difficulties in the future.
Rather than moan to us, why not visit your estate agent?Motorsport needs to start showing its green credentials in order to survive, and indeed grow, and that includes understanding, and taking steps to combat noise issues. If motorsport takes an active role in reducing perceived noise pollution rather than doing an ostritch impression it may well achieve wider popularity & support & we may end up with more meetings and fewer objections at Combe, Rockingham etc, or even some developments of new circuits (eg the Perranporth one in Cornwall).
As an aside, I recently went to a horse race meeting at Uttoxeter as guest. Boring to me but the place was packed. I asked some of the people with me if they would consider going motor racing instead and the majority said no.....partly because it was too noisy!
As motorsport enthusiasts we are in the minority and our sport is seen as a noise & traffic nuisance that gives too little back. We have to be responsible or else we will face greater difficulties in the future.
kevin ritson said:
andy97 said:
The noise to me is a pleasure but to the vast majority it is a massive intrusion.
Rather than moan to us, why not visit your estate agent?Kevin, if you read my post again you'll see that I said that to me the noise was a pleasure. I am a regular spectator at many circuits and a competitor. I am not moaning about the noise, I am just trying to understand that others see our sport as a pain rather than a pleasure and would like to help achieve some sort of accommodation so that we can all co-exist & thrive in the future. Co-existance & thriving will probably mean taking account of other people's views and compromising on slightly lower noise levels rathe than saying, "tough".
Being selfish will just get the motorsport community a bad name & have restrictions imposed upon us.
Being selfish will just get the motorsport community a bad name & have restrictions imposed upon us.
It's a sad day for Formula 1 racing today as yet another legal battle ensues. McLaren has denied rumours that Lewis Hamilton was running with semi-skimmed milk on his milk float, with the reduction of cream suggesting that he is now below minimum weight levels.
Honda are also in trouble when a rubber shoe, used to silence the feet of the cart horse they use to tow their car silently around the track, fell off the hoof, causing a regular CLOP........ CLOP..... CLOP noise, clearly audible to local resident's directional microphone.
BMW's testing continues, and while the pace of the sedan-chair carried by mime-artists has proven itself both with silence and pace, the team are frustrated at the number of impassable glass walls the track seems to have.
Ferrari are still under suspension, when in an attempt to get around the new noise restriction rules, they fired the work force and replaced them with new staff, all of who were deaf.
Jenson Button is due out of hospital within the week, though he will be unfit to drive for the rest of the season. Jenson was injured when a mechanic over tightened the elastic band that power's Jenson's car, cuasing an unexpected amount of torque to give Jenson whiplash. Stewards ruled that the resulting TWANG noise when the band snapped was a racing accident, and he will not be deducted points.
Stewards are still investigating the illegal usage of bubblewrap, with both Williams and Super Aguri denying claims that they had put bubblewrap under the wheels of opposing cars in the hope of causing minor popping noises to get their competitors black flagged for excessive noise.
When asked about Lewis's allication of full-fat milk, Ron Dennis replied "Shhhhhh"
Honda are also in trouble when a rubber shoe, used to silence the feet of the cart horse they use to tow their car silently around the track, fell off the hoof, causing a regular CLOP........ CLOP..... CLOP noise, clearly audible to local resident's directional microphone.
BMW's testing continues, and while the pace of the sedan-chair carried by mime-artists has proven itself both with silence and pace, the team are frustrated at the number of impassable glass walls the track seems to have.
Ferrari are still under suspension, when in an attempt to get around the new noise restriction rules, they fired the work force and replaced them with new staff, all of who were deaf.
Jenson Button is due out of hospital within the week, though he will be unfit to drive for the rest of the season. Jenson was injured when a mechanic over tightened the elastic band that power's Jenson's car, cuasing an unexpected amount of torque to give Jenson whiplash. Stewards ruled that the resulting TWANG noise when the band snapped was a racing accident, and he will not be deducted points.
Stewards are still investigating the illegal usage of bubblewrap, with both Williams and Super Aguri denying claims that they had put bubblewrap under the wheels of opposing cars in the hope of causing minor popping noises to get their competitors black flagged for excessive noise.
When asked about Lewis's allication of full-fat milk, Ron Dennis replied "Shhhhhh"
regarding the environmental impact, i recently did some maths to work out taht a 747 flying to australia and back uses more fuel than is use d in club motorsport in the UK per year, one flight = one season. i'll dig out the figures when i find them, there are a lot of assumptions but it has a ring of truth to it.
if you consider how many people travelto football matches each week, its amazing why the rail industry do not run football specials of old, albeit better organise. for instance, portsmouth will play manchester city, united, newcastle united, sunderland, liverpool and everton, wigan and bolton this season. if the railways ran a train full of supporters to these games, think of the traffic that would remove from the M5 and M6!?!?!
as for noise, they can try to keep reducing the dbs but people, normally those who choose to move next to a race circuit, will always complain. those who lived there before the circuit are few and far between. as for events, surely races twenty years ago were louder than today, i can remember watching F5000 races at castle combe, an (relatively) unsilenced 5 litre V8 must be noisier than a saloon car of FF1600...
i think the answer lies in integrating the local community where ever the circuit is, get them interested in the the sport and actually what happens at an event rather than just free tickets to an event. i stongly believe that if organisers are in conflict with local residents, they should invite teh residents to a race day to actually see what goes on to try to alieviate noise issues, scrutineering etc, ok its not that much fun to watch but its showing that the organsiors are attempting to do something about the problem. i think people will be slightly more enthusiastic if they are shown how the sport is helping to comabt noise rather than just slagging matches at debates in council halls.
at the end of the day, i think it all goes back to house prioces. people buy one expecting it to accumulate and not because thats where they want to live. certainly thats what happens in wiltshire, people buy the nice country cottages with access to bristol, bath and swindon, then complain like mad because castle combe events may restrict them from making a fortune when they sell on!... if it were down to me there would be a prison and an immigration detention centre in the middle of castle combe just to really piss off the locals!
if you dont want the noise, dont live near a circuit, why dont people who live near football grounds complain about the suppporters cheering a goal? do they accept it or do they complain but get laughed at for buying a house there in the first place?!?!?!?
if you consider how many people travelto football matches each week, its amazing why the rail industry do not run football specials of old, albeit better organise. for instance, portsmouth will play manchester city, united, newcastle united, sunderland, liverpool and everton, wigan and bolton this season. if the railways ran a train full of supporters to these games, think of the traffic that would remove from the M5 and M6!?!?!
as for noise, they can try to keep reducing the dbs but people, normally those who choose to move next to a race circuit, will always complain. those who lived there before the circuit are few and far between. as for events, surely races twenty years ago were louder than today, i can remember watching F5000 races at castle combe, an (relatively) unsilenced 5 litre V8 must be noisier than a saloon car of FF1600...
i think the answer lies in integrating the local community where ever the circuit is, get them interested in the the sport and actually what happens at an event rather than just free tickets to an event. i stongly believe that if organisers are in conflict with local residents, they should invite teh residents to a race day to actually see what goes on to try to alieviate noise issues, scrutineering etc, ok its not that much fun to watch but its showing that the organsiors are attempting to do something about the problem. i think people will be slightly more enthusiastic if they are shown how the sport is helping to comabt noise rather than just slagging matches at debates in council halls.
at the end of the day, i think it all goes back to house prioces. people buy one expecting it to accumulate and not because thats where they want to live. certainly thats what happens in wiltshire, people buy the nice country cottages with access to bristol, bath and swindon, then complain like mad because castle combe events may restrict them from making a fortune when they sell on!... if it were down to me there would be a prison and an immigration detention centre in the middle of castle combe just to really piss off the locals!
if you dont want the noise, dont live near a circuit, why dont people who live near football grounds complain about the suppporters cheering a goal? do they accept it or do they complain but get laughed at for buying a house there in the first place?!?!?!?
Hammer Zeit said:
People will turn against motorsport sooner or later. They'll only see it as pollution, be it Noise or emissions, and not a sport. The fact is that yes, motorsport is noisy but so is a plane. Top level motorsport is at the pinicle of engine development, thanks to Formula 1 they have refined the technology and now use it on the manufacturer's production cars.
I don't know if this has been posted on this forum before but here it is again if you haven't seen it:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display...
Cars that do 3.5 miles to the gallon are not unacceptable.I don't know if this has been posted on this forum before but here it is again if you haven't seen it:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display...
I quite agree.
If the prat cant get that part of his argument written correctly, what for the rest of the nonsense in that article. What a numpty.
andy97.
I think that part of the problem many of us 'die-hards' have with the changes id the old thin end of the wedge. First we had silencers on Hillclimb cars, then on most race cars and now that we have restricted running hours and Church breaks etc, the 'complainers' want more.
So they got what they wanted, within reason, and now they have that they want more (or less ).
Where does it end? I would be happy to agree to reasonable limits but it's starting to get out of control.
I think that part of the problem many of us 'die-hards' have with the changes id the old thin end of the wedge. First we had silencers on Hillclimb cars, then on most race cars and now that we have restricted running hours and Church breaks etc, the 'complainers' want more.
So they got what they wanted, within reason, and now they have that they want more (or less
).Where does it end? I would be happy to agree to reasonable limits but it's starting to get out of control.
johnfelstead said:
Hammer Zeit said:
People will turn against motorsport sooner or later. They'll only see it as pollution, be it Noise or emissions, and not a sport. The fact is that yes, motorsport is noisy but so is a plane. Top level motorsport is at the pinicle of engine development, thanks to Formula 1 they have refined the technology and now use it on the manufacturer's production cars.
I don't know if this has been posted on this forum before but here it is again if you haven't seen it:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display...
Cars that do 3.5 miles to the gallon are not unacceptable.I don't know if this has been posted on this forum before but here it is again if you haven't seen it:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display...
I quite agree.
If the prat cant get that part of his argument written correctly, what for the rest of the nonsense in that article. What a numpty.
Getting them riled and then telling them to post.
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