World Motor Sport Council
Discussion
With the Ferrari/McLaren off-circuit dispute about to reach a crescendo on Thursday, one may have been wondering, as I was, who composes the FIA World Motor Sport Council.
The members are:
The World Motor Sport Council Administers motor sport. Its members represent sporting authorities from all over the world.
Current members:
FIA President Max Mosley; Deputy President Marco Piccinini; VP Michel Boeri (Monaco); VP Nazir Hoosein (India); VP Hermann Tomcyzk (Ger); VP Derek Ledger (Jor); VP Jose Abed (Mex); VP Morrie Chandler (NZ); Jacek Bartos (Pol); Garry Connelly (Aus); Wang Heping (Chin); Jacques Regis (Fr); Vassilis Despotopoulos (Gr); Radovan Novak (Cz Rep); Lars Osterlind (Swe); Antonio Vasconelos Tavares (Por); Carlos Garcia (Sp); Nick Craw (US); Paulo Eneas Scaglione (Br); Enzo Spano (Ven); Graham Stoker (GB); Surinder Thatti (Tan); Masami Yamaguchi (Japan) Luigi Macaluso (Karting Commission); Francois Cornelis (Manufacturers' Commission); and Bernie Ecclestone (President of F1 Constructors' Association) or Jean Todt (F1 Constructors).
I know nothing about most of them, although it seems unlikely that many of them would sit on the WMSC if they had an uncooperative relationship with the President of the FIA.
It is interesting, however, to note that:
- FIA Deputy-President Marco Piccinini was for ten years the Ferrari Sporting Director.
- The representative from Jordan (the country), Derek Ledger, was one of the three stewards who decided in Hungary to move Alonso back to fifth starting position and, in addition, to take away all McLaren's Constructor's points.
- Luigi Macaluso, who appears to qualify for the WMSC because of his authority over go-karts (head of the CIK - world karting federation), is also President of the Commissione Sportiva Automobilistica Italiana (Italian motorsport authority). Furthermore, he is President of Girard-Perregaux, who have the deal to make the "Ferrari" label watches. He is the guy over whose signature was printed the letter to Mosley that protested the original verdict of the WMSC. Mosley asserted that it was this letter that persuaded him to allow Ferrari to appeal the original decision.
- Then we have Todt - who is the only representative from any F1 team to sit on the WMSC. The Council used to comprise members representing several teams, until the FIA "restructured" it a couple of years ago.
Finally, at the head of the table, we have Max Mosley.
Strap yourselves in...
The members are:
The World Motor Sport Council Administers motor sport. Its members represent sporting authorities from all over the world.
Current members:
FIA President Max Mosley; Deputy President Marco Piccinini; VP Michel Boeri (Monaco); VP Nazir Hoosein (India); VP Hermann Tomcyzk (Ger); VP Derek Ledger (Jor); VP Jose Abed (Mex); VP Morrie Chandler (NZ); Jacek Bartos (Pol); Garry Connelly (Aus); Wang Heping (Chin); Jacques Regis (Fr); Vassilis Despotopoulos (Gr); Radovan Novak (Cz Rep); Lars Osterlind (Swe); Antonio Vasconelos Tavares (Por); Carlos Garcia (Sp); Nick Craw (US); Paulo Eneas Scaglione (Br); Enzo Spano (Ven); Graham Stoker (GB); Surinder Thatti (Tan); Masami Yamaguchi (Japan) Luigi Macaluso (Karting Commission); Francois Cornelis (Manufacturers' Commission); and Bernie Ecclestone (President of F1 Constructors' Association) or Jean Todt (F1 Constructors).
I know nothing about most of them, although it seems unlikely that many of them would sit on the WMSC if they had an uncooperative relationship with the President of the FIA.
It is interesting, however, to note that:
- FIA Deputy-President Marco Piccinini was for ten years the Ferrari Sporting Director.
- The representative from Jordan (the country), Derek Ledger, was one of the three stewards who decided in Hungary to move Alonso back to fifth starting position and, in addition, to take away all McLaren's Constructor's points.
- Luigi Macaluso, who appears to qualify for the WMSC because of his authority over go-karts (head of the CIK - world karting federation), is also President of the Commissione Sportiva Automobilistica Italiana (Italian motorsport authority). Furthermore, he is President of Girard-Perregaux, who have the deal to make the "Ferrari" label watches. He is the guy over whose signature was printed the letter to Mosley that protested the original verdict of the WMSC. Mosley asserted that it was this letter that persuaded him to allow Ferrari to appeal the original decision.
- Then we have Todt - who is the only representative from any F1 team to sit on the WMSC. The Council used to comprise members representing several teams, until the FIA "restructured" it a couple of years ago.
Finally, at the head of the table, we have Max Mosley.
Strap yourselves in...
flemke said:
and Bernie Ecclestone (President of F1 Constructors' Association) or Jean Todt (F1 Constructors).
I agree. That doesn't look good. But as I've quoted above it's Bernie OR Jean Todt. I would hope that given the obvious conflict of interest Jean will be unable to "vote" on this matter.However given all the others around the table frankly McLaren would appear to be about to reach for the soap in the F1 shower.
i think it's a forgone conclusion - Mclaren have do nothing wrong - but they are going to have all their constructor championship points taken away for this season, possible ban for next season - Alonso will go to Renault in 2008 - and Lewis maybe to Prodrive
The Mclaren group are going to get royally f**cked over on Thursday
but on the positive - Mclaren will drop Alonso and Hamilton will get the full weight of the team behind him and win the the drivers title this year that's assuming Mclaren aren't going to be banned from the paddock for the rest of the season
God i hope it doesn't pan out this way (except for hamilton winning the champs)
The Mclaren group are going to get royally f**cked over on Thursday
but on the positive - Mclaren will drop Alonso and Hamilton will get the full weight of the team behind him and win the the drivers title this year that's assuming Mclaren aren't going to be banned from the paddock for the rest of the season
God i hope it doesn't pan out this way (except for hamilton winning the champs)
Edited by woof on Tuesday 11th September 20:32
Here is my version of Thurs and the rest of the season:
Mclaren found guilty but given leave to appeal.
Appeal date set for after the last race.
F1 maitains TV audiences and Bernie collects his £££ for the year. Sponsors can't complain.
At appeal hearing season is declared null and void - no one wins anything.
......and then I woke up
Mclaren found guilty but given leave to appeal.
Appeal date set for after the last race.
F1 maitains TV audiences and Bernie collects his £££ for the year. Sponsors can't complain.
At appeal hearing season is declared null and void - no one wins anything.
......and then I woke up
Munter said:
Assuming a McLaren ban next year. Whats to stop them throwing all their weight (inc sponsers) and people behind prodrive. Essentially McLaren with a different name?
I asked the same question previously on another thread, surely some rule against them doing this otherwise Prodrive could well win the title in their first season. This could also be another reason were waiting for an announcement from them.Certainly it doesn't look good for McLaren on Thursday but saying that it could well blow over as none of us really know all the facts unless Ron Dennis or Jean Todt log on here.
I can't believe they'll ban McL - too much affect for the bottom line (and the fans).
If they dock manufacturer points - how can they do that without docking driver points - so that looks crap too.
Equally - they can't "let them get away with it" - assuming there is anything resembling evidence at all.
If they dock manufacturer points - how can they do that without docking driver points - so that looks crap too.
Equally - they can't "let them get away with it" - assuming there is anything resembling evidence at all.
The FIA and any inquiry they hold is an absolute joke. Max Mosley is a complete c*ck and should have been taken out of the equation years ago.
I think its a sad day when its the governing body who are destroying the sport and alienating fans. I find it so infuriating that the sport I love is being dirtied and destroyed by c*cks like Mosley and Todt.
Ron Dennis is a guy thats lived motorsport all his life, to him its a passion not a business. He's seen it from every level and understands the sport and that is why he takes all these things so personally. I feel extremely sorry that a person with his acheivements can have it all jeapodised by a bunch of money grabbing suits who are apparently the world voice on motorsport.....
I think its a sad day when its the governing body who are destroying the sport and alienating fans. I find it so infuriating that the sport I love is being dirtied and destroyed by c*cks like Mosley and Todt.
Ron Dennis is a guy thats lived motorsport all his life, to him its a passion not a business. He's seen it from every level and understands the sport and that is why he takes all these things so personally. I feel extremely sorry that a person with his acheivements can have it all jeapodised by a bunch of money grabbing suits who are apparently the world voice on motorsport.....
Edited by NightDriver on Tuesday 11th September 21:38
Unless there is an indisputable smoking gun (which I very much doubt, as I very much doubt that there was any substantial abuse of proprietary information at any level), I can't see McLaren's being barred from competing as "McLaren" next year.
Saying this, I hope I do not underestimate the willingness of some of the protagonists to act in an utterly cynical and ignominious fashion.
To bar McLaren from next season would harm the sport commercially, and seriously undermine its credibility. How you can have guys move from team to team (such as Chief Designer Nikolas Tombazis's moving from McLaren to Ferrari), taking to their new teams everything they learned at the old and then applying it at the new, as a matter of business-as-usual, but banish a team because, unknown to its team principal, one of his designers accepted IP that was volunteered to him by someone at another team, is beyond me.
How you could see two designers illicitly purloin IP from Ferrari, give it to Toyota, be convicted in a criminal proceeding of industrial espionage and given prison terms, with no consequences for Toyota and no action by the FIA, and yet have the FIA ban McLaren for nothing more than guilt by association, is beyond me.
Then again, at this point almost nothing would surprise me.
A number of us were gobsmacked in July when the WMSC found McLaren "guilty" but gave no penalty. Lately, however, I have been wondering about the likelihood that this whole thing has been a Ferrari/FIA charade.
Might the FIA leadership have arranged that 15-0 unanimous vote in order to convey the impression of impartiality, all the time intending to grant the appeal, at which time the hammer would come down?
What are the chances that Ferrari had, as Macaluso claimed in his letter of protest, come up with "new evidence" only four days after the first WMSC hearing?
How could it be that the evidence in the first hearing was so convincing that even Picinnini, the former Ferrari Sporting Director, voted for no penalty on McLaren, yet a few days later Mosley let Ferrari reopen the whole thing by himself submitting on their behalf the appeal of an "unappealable" verdict?
It's obvious that this affair has the potential to rip the sport apart; why would the FIA President, whose manipulations, tactical games and dictates have often defied logic and common decency, suddenly be overwhelmed by a fit of conscience and feel impelled to rehash everything, in the name of "finding the truth"?
Is it really likely that Max, whose mutual animosity with Ron has for years been plain to see, would in this case turn the other cheek - as a matter of principle and integrity - and stay impartial when he finally had Ron in the cross-hairs?
So it's hard to imagine that they would bar McLaren from next season. (Although, in addition to such a ban's serving Ferrari's interests, one can see why Briatore has been yapping off against McLaren, as a McLaren ban would enable him to get Alonso back in his car).
Also, it's hard to imagine that they would take this year's Drivers' points away from FA and LH. Absent specific proof that they had benefited from car enhancements that were the product of illicit insights, it would be awkward to penalise the drivers.
My guess is that - if they seek to impose a harsh penalty - they will fine McLaren a big number and take away this year's CC points, subject to an ICA appeal. That way the season could continue to run as normal, McLaren would continue to be distracted but wouldn't be a complete martyr, the FIA could protect itself from legal exposure, and Ferrari could forever claim that they were a "victim".
One of the more tedious, and repellent, aspects of this affair has been Ferrari's playing of the old trick - the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Because those in the middle or in positions of authority of mediation wish to mollify, there is always a tendency to find a compromise. The more outrageous and extreme the demands of one side, the farther in its direction the ultimate compromise is likely to be.
Low behaviour, but not atypical for one or two of the three parties involved here.
Saying this, I hope I do not underestimate the willingness of some of the protagonists to act in an utterly cynical and ignominious fashion.
To bar McLaren from next season would harm the sport commercially, and seriously undermine its credibility. How you can have guys move from team to team (such as Chief Designer Nikolas Tombazis's moving from McLaren to Ferrari), taking to their new teams everything they learned at the old and then applying it at the new, as a matter of business-as-usual, but banish a team because, unknown to its team principal, one of his designers accepted IP that was volunteered to him by someone at another team, is beyond me.
How you could see two designers illicitly purloin IP from Ferrari, give it to Toyota, be convicted in a criminal proceeding of industrial espionage and given prison terms, with no consequences for Toyota and no action by the FIA, and yet have the FIA ban McLaren for nothing more than guilt by association, is beyond me.
Then again, at this point almost nothing would surprise me.
A number of us were gobsmacked in July when the WMSC found McLaren "guilty" but gave no penalty. Lately, however, I have been wondering about the likelihood that this whole thing has been a Ferrari/FIA charade.
Might the FIA leadership have arranged that 15-0 unanimous vote in order to convey the impression of impartiality, all the time intending to grant the appeal, at which time the hammer would come down?
What are the chances that Ferrari had, as Macaluso claimed in his letter of protest, come up with "new evidence" only four days after the first WMSC hearing?
How could it be that the evidence in the first hearing was so convincing that even Picinnini, the former Ferrari Sporting Director, voted for no penalty on McLaren, yet a few days later Mosley let Ferrari reopen the whole thing by himself submitting on their behalf the appeal of an "unappealable" verdict?
It's obvious that this affair has the potential to rip the sport apart; why would the FIA President, whose manipulations, tactical games and dictates have often defied logic and common decency, suddenly be overwhelmed by a fit of conscience and feel impelled to rehash everything, in the name of "finding the truth"?
Is it really likely that Max, whose mutual animosity with Ron has for years been plain to see, would in this case turn the other cheek - as a matter of principle and integrity - and stay impartial when he finally had Ron in the cross-hairs?
So it's hard to imagine that they would bar McLaren from next season. (Although, in addition to such a ban's serving Ferrari's interests, one can see why Briatore has been yapping off against McLaren, as a McLaren ban would enable him to get Alonso back in his car).
Also, it's hard to imagine that they would take this year's Drivers' points away from FA and LH. Absent specific proof that they had benefited from car enhancements that were the product of illicit insights, it would be awkward to penalise the drivers.
My guess is that - if they seek to impose a harsh penalty - they will fine McLaren a big number and take away this year's CC points, subject to an ICA appeal. That way the season could continue to run as normal, McLaren would continue to be distracted but wouldn't be a complete martyr, the FIA could protect itself from legal exposure, and Ferrari could forever claim that they were a "victim".
One of the more tedious, and repellent, aspects of this affair has been Ferrari's playing of the old trick - the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Because those in the middle or in positions of authority of mediation wish to mollify, there is always a tendency to find a compromise. The more outrageous and extreme the demands of one side, the farther in its direction the ultimate compromise is likely to be.
Low behaviour, but not atypical for one or two of the three parties involved here.
Joe911 said:
I can't believe they'll ban McL - too much affect for the bottom line (and the fans).
If they dock manufacturer points - how can they do that without docking driver points - so that looks crap too.
Equally - they can't "let them get away with it" - assuming there is anything resembling evidence at all.
We've already had the situation in Hungary where McLaren scored no manufacturers points, but the drivers still gained points towards the WDC.If they dock manufacturer points - how can they do that without docking driver points - so that looks crap too.
Equally - they can't "let them get away with it" - assuming there is anything resembling evidence at all.
flemke said:
- Luigi Macaluso, who appears to qualify for the WMSC because of his authority over go-karts (head of the CIK - world karting federation), is also President of the Commissione Sportiva Automobilistica Italiana (Italian motorsport authority). Furthermore, he is President of Girard-Perregaux, who have the deal to make the "Ferrari" label watches. He is the guy over whose signature was printed the letter to Mosley that protested the original verdict of the WMSC. Mosley asserted that it was this letter that persuaded him to allow Ferrari to appeal the original decision.
While I don't doubt the rest of this, these days the donkey watches are made by Panerai. Which makes sense seeing as they're also a huge poser brand...Edited by Dr JonboyG on Tuesday 11th September 22:41
Dr JonboyG said:
flemke said:
- Luigi Macaluso, who appears to qualify for the WMSC because of his authority over go-karts (head of the CIK - world karting federation), is also President of the Commissione Sportiva Automobilistica Italiana (Italian motorsport authority). Furthermore, he is President of Girard-Perregaux, who have the deal to make the "Ferrari" label watches. He is the guy over whose signature was printed the letter to Mosley that protested the original verdict of the WMSC. Mosley asserted that it was this letter that persuaded him to allow Ferrari to appeal the original decision.
While I don't doubt the rest of this, these days the donkey watches are made by Panerai. Which makes sense seeing as they're also a huge poser brand...It doesn't matter - they're both ugly watches, and ugly cars.
I cant see the drivers being docked points so long as the cars they are driving are within the F1 car spec. Otherwise we'd have to dock the guys in the faster cars points anyway because their cars are better than the other guys. It's an impossible situation. If the manufacturer of the car has stolen technology from another team to make the faster car then it's them in the wrong doing. The driver however is still playing the game with a car thats passed the FIA tests.
jacobyte said:
I sincerely hope that Ron walks in there with Stepney's "buried bodies" and the whole debacle backfires on Todt in the most monumental way.
Me too.Vile, vile little man, M. Todt, with a face you just want to hit. With a cricket bat.
I don't think, for a moment, that McLaren will be barred from racing next year, but there'll be just enough of a penalty to cost it both titles.
flemke said:
With the Ferrari/McLaren off-circuit dispute about to reach a crescendo on Thursday, one may have been wondering, as I was, who composes the FIA World Motor Sport Council.
The members are:
The World Motor Sport Council Administers motor sport. Its members represent sporting authorities from all over the world.
Current members:
FIA President Max Mosley; Deputy President Marco Piccinini; VP Michel Boeri (Monaco); VP Nazir Hoosein (India); VP Hermann Tomcyzk (Ger); VP Derek Ledger (Jor); VP Jose Abed (Mex); VP Morrie Chandler (NZ); Jacek Bartos (Pol); Garry Connelly (Aus); Wang Heping (Chin); Jacques Regis (Fr); Vassilis Despotopoulos (Gr); Radovan Novak (Cz Rep); Lars Osterlind (Swe); Antonio Vasconelos Tavares (Por); Carlos Garcia (Sp); Nick Craw (US); Paulo Eneas Scaglione (Br); Enzo Spano (Ven); Graham Stoker (GB); Surinder Thatti (Tan); Masami Yamaguchi (Japan) Luigi Macaluso (Karting Commission); Francois Cornelis (Manufacturers' Commission); and Bernie Ecclestone (President of F1 Constructors' Association) or Jean Todt (F1 Constructors).
I know nothing about most of them, although it seems unlikely that many of them would sit on the WMSC if they had an uncooperative relationship with the President of the FIA.
It is interesting, however, to note that:
- FIA Deputy-President Marco Piccinini was for ten years the Ferrari Sporting Director.
- The representative from Jordan (the country), Derek Ledger, was one of the three stewards who decided in Hungary to move Alonso back to fifth starting position and, in addition, to take away all McLaren's Constructor's points.
- Luigi Macaluso, who appears to qualify for the WMSC because of his authority over go-karts (head of the CIK - world karting federation), is also President of the Commissione Sportiva Automobilistica Italiana (Italian motorsport authority). Furthermore, he is President of Girard-Perregaux, who have the deal to make the "Ferrari" label watches. He is the guy over whose signature was printed the letter to Mosley that protested the original verdict of the WMSC. Mosley asserted that it was this letter that persuaded him to allow Ferrari to appeal the original decision.
- Then we have Todt - who is the only representative from any F1 team to sit on the WMSC. The Council used to comprise members representing several teams, until the FIA "restructured" it a couple of years ago.
Finally, at the head of the table, we have Max Mosley.
Strap yourselves in...
So that's 5 out of....26, who will back Ferrari regardless. Well that really is an overwhelming majority...The members are:
The World Motor Sport Council Administers motor sport. Its members represent sporting authorities from all over the world.
Current members:
FIA President Max Mosley; Deputy President Marco Piccinini; VP Michel Boeri (Monaco); VP Nazir Hoosein (India); VP Hermann Tomcyzk (Ger); VP Derek Ledger (Jor); VP Jose Abed (Mex); VP Morrie Chandler (NZ); Jacek Bartos (Pol); Garry Connelly (Aus); Wang Heping (Chin); Jacques Regis (Fr); Vassilis Despotopoulos (Gr); Radovan Novak (Cz Rep); Lars Osterlind (Swe); Antonio Vasconelos Tavares (Por); Carlos Garcia (Sp); Nick Craw (US); Paulo Eneas Scaglione (Br); Enzo Spano (Ven); Graham Stoker (GB); Surinder Thatti (Tan); Masami Yamaguchi (Japan) Luigi Macaluso (Karting Commission); Francois Cornelis (Manufacturers' Commission); and Bernie Ecclestone (President of F1 Constructors' Association) or Jean Todt (F1 Constructors).
I know nothing about most of them, although it seems unlikely that many of them would sit on the WMSC if they had an uncooperative relationship with the President of the FIA.
It is interesting, however, to note that:
- FIA Deputy-President Marco Piccinini was for ten years the Ferrari Sporting Director.
- The representative from Jordan (the country), Derek Ledger, was one of the three stewards who decided in Hungary to move Alonso back to fifth starting position and, in addition, to take away all McLaren's Constructor's points.
- Luigi Macaluso, who appears to qualify for the WMSC because of his authority over go-karts (head of the CIK - world karting federation), is also President of the Commissione Sportiva Automobilistica Italiana (Italian motorsport authority). Furthermore, he is President of Girard-Perregaux, who have the deal to make the "Ferrari" label watches. He is the guy over whose signature was printed the letter to Mosley that protested the original verdict of the WMSC. Mosley asserted that it was this letter that persuaded him to allow Ferrari to appeal the original decision.
- Then we have Todt - who is the only representative from any F1 team to sit on the WMSC. The Council used to comprise members representing several teams, until the FIA "restructured" it a couple of years ago.
Finally, at the head of the table, we have Max Mosley.
Strap yourselves in...
As stated in another thread, I'm not saying that McLaren are guilty, though i do find it astonishing that many seem to dismiss the possibility through pure dogmatism.
Edited by Jamesf288 on Tuesday 11th September 23:12
I really hope the outcome on Thursday is satisfactory for all parties, but I can't see how they can possibly wangle that.
I've been an archair F1 fan for most of my adult life but if punishment given to McLaren in light of this new evidence is disproportionate to the 'crime' then I won't bother watching anymore.
I've been an archair F1 fan for most of my adult life but if punishment given to McLaren in light of this new evidence is disproportionate to the 'crime' then I won't bother watching anymore.
Jamesf288 said:
So that's 4 out of....26, who will back Ferrari regardless. Well that really is an overwhelming majority...
Should there be anyone at all on such a body who will 'back Ferrari regardless', or any other team, for that matter? Shouldn't total objectivity be a prerequisite?Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff