fly by wire in formula one
Discussion
Instead of mechanical link between the throtle pedal and the engine, you have variable switich on the pedal which sends a electric current to thefuel/air inlet valve witch opens and closes by means of a small motor in accordance to the amount of pressure placed on the throttle pedal.
Same with gears and clutch - there's no direct mechanical link between the driver and the gearbox. You basically select what you want to happen and it happens (unless it shouldn't happen - a major advantage of FBW)
Other advantages are quicker response, less weight, more variabity/accuracy in set up.
I think they tried FBW steering but was quickly outlawed!
Same with gears and clutch - there's no direct mechanical link between the driver and the gearbox. You basically select what you want to happen and it happens (unless it shouldn't happen - a major advantage of FBW)
Other advantages are quicker response, less weight, more variabity/accuracy in set up.
I think they tried FBW steering but was quickly outlawed!
so in idiots terms they have replace a mechanical system with a electronic system what are the main advantages / disadvantages this is for my HND mechanical we have given a report to write on fly by wire controls i can only think of formula 1 and planes that use this method (apart from a few cars)
regards
regards
HairyBeast said:
so in idiots terms they have replace a mechanical system with a electronic system what are the main advantages / disadvantages this is for my HND mechanical we have given a report to write on fly by wire controls i can only think of formula 1 and planes that use this method (apart from a few cars)
regards
Loads of cars use it these days.regards
One key advantage for road cars is that the ECU can process the throttle position signal. This means that you can smooth out inputs etc to aid economy, or at the flick of a switch make the throttle response sharp for a sport mode.
Fly by wire is just replacing a mechanical link system with a sensor, control unit and actuator.
There are various types in use, the throttle on most modern road cars uses a potentiometer on the throttle pedal, that is read by the ECU (engine control Unit) and then the ECU generates a drive output to control the throttle butterfly position using an electric stepper motor. It doesnt have to be just throttle, gearshift can be done this way plus pretty much any other mechanical contol system.
On very high performance systems that require fast response, they do away with the stepper motors and replace them with pnematics or hydraulics systems.
Modern fighter aircraft are 100% fly by wire and cant physically fly without using a computer controlled system to interpret the pilots inputs and control the attitude based on that, they are designed to fly in a highly unstable state to be able to react quickly. Even if you had the conventional mechanical control links in place, the pilot couldnt keep up with the inputs required to keep it flying.
There are various types in use, the throttle on most modern road cars uses a potentiometer on the throttle pedal, that is read by the ECU (engine control Unit) and then the ECU generates a drive output to control the throttle butterfly position using an electric stepper motor. It doesnt have to be just throttle, gearshift can be done this way plus pretty much any other mechanical contol system.
On very high performance systems that require fast response, they do away with the stepper motors and replace them with pnematics or hydraulics systems.
Modern fighter aircraft are 100% fly by wire and cant physically fly without using a computer controlled system to interpret the pilots inputs and control the attitude based on that, they are designed to fly in a highly unstable state to be able to react quickly. Even if you had the conventional mechanical control links in place, the pilot couldnt keep up with the inputs required to keep it flying.
That about covers it. Should be noted in F1 that brakes and steering are NOT allowed to be FBW. They must both have a direct mechanical linkage. One of the few disadvantages of electronic FBW systems is reliability. A sensor failure or any electrical or electronic malfunction may end in tears. Redundancy is used in the aircraft industry to help guard against such problems eg. multiple sensors measuring the same thing, back-up computers, etc. Limited redundancy is used in some of the F1 systems too, but not to the same extent.
HairyBeast said:
so in idiots terms they have replace a mechanical system with a electronic system what are the main advantages / disadvantages this is for my HND mechanical we have given a report to write on fly by wire controls i can only think of formula 1 and planes that use this method (apart from a few cars)
regards
Since it's part of your education, don't you think you should be researching and thinking about this for yourself rather than getting PH to do your assignment for you? If you didn't already know what it did in idiots terms surely you're on the wrong course!regards
for you information i always research my topics and assignments very well this is just one area that information can be gained
unlike the majority of people out there i can safely say the all the information i gain and gleam out of people will not be just copied and just pasted in to a document the reason i asked here is because of the difficulty of getting information from a formula one team i don't happen to know them or live next door to one
the internet is the best place to gain information i don't ask for people to write this for me just a little help from people who actually know
if i was to talk about Kirchhoff's theory or the universal gas laws what about particle physics would you know what i was on about (i dont know but if you did not your would ask some one for help) surely this is also one form of research
regards
unlike the majority of people out there i can safely say the all the information i gain and gleam out of people will not be just copied and just pasted in to a document the reason i asked here is because of the difficulty of getting information from a formula one team i don't happen to know them or live next door to one
the internet is the best place to gain information i don't ask for people to write this for me just a little help from people who actually know
if i was to talk about Kirchhoff's theory or the universal gas laws what about particle physics would you know what i was on about (i dont know but if you did not your would ask some one for help) surely this is also one form of research
regards
With respect there's a difference between "I'm working on X for an assignment and I don't understand this bit ..." and "I've got to produce an essay about X, please tell me everything about it". If you're being asked to produce a report about fly by wire then that implies that you are expected to have some familiarity with transducers and actuators and feedback control systems and so on. If not then why were you given this assignment?
johnfelstead said:
Modern fighter aircraft are 100% fly by wire and cant physically fly without using a computer controlled system to interpret the pilots inputs and control the attitude based on that, they are designed to fly in a highly unstable state to be able to react quickly. Even if you had the conventional mechanical control links in place, the pilot couldnt keep up with the inputs required to keep it flying.
Am I right in thinking that some passenger aircraft now have a mechanical link back up? I seem to recall there was an early problem with Airbus in that the computer didn't want to do what the pilot wanted and the thing did a couple of loop the loops before finally landing safely!I don't know how far it goes in F1, but fly by wire in aircraft, particularly modern fighter jets, has the pilots control input only as part of the picture it gets; it is more than just sensing control position and moving the flaps or whatever.
These days to get the crazy manouverability from the aircraft, the design is open-loop unstable. This means that to get the thing to travel in a straight line, and not go into a spin and crash, the electrickery needs to continuously adapt control surfaces to the acceleration forces it receives from its sensors, forming a feedback loop.
With the jet fighter, the pilot's inputs to the system are evaluated, and the system shall respond as required to get the jet to do what it is asked while it keeps it in the stable condition, whether there are limitations that the jet imposes on what can be done so that it remains stable I don't know; I studied this a long time ago.
These days to get the crazy manouverability from the aircraft, the design is open-loop unstable. This means that to get the thing to travel in a straight line, and not go into a spin and crash, the electrickery needs to continuously adapt control surfaces to the acceleration forces it receives from its sensors, forming a feedback loop.
With the jet fighter, the pilot's inputs to the system are evaluated, and the system shall respond as required to get the jet to do what it is asked while it keeps it in the stable condition, whether there are limitations that the jet imposes on what can be done so that it remains stable I don't know; I studied this a long time ago.
GreenV8S said:
With respect there's a difference between "I'm working on X for an assignment and I don't understand this bit ..." and "I've got to produce an essay about X, please tell me everything about it". If you're being asked to produce a report about fly by wire then that implies that you are expected to have some familiarity with transducers and actuators and feedback control systems and so on. If not then why were you given this assignment?
i have not asked for everything about it and yes the report is in a totally new area for study for us so no i don't know any thing about it hence why i asked we were give assignment to find out about itthanks to all the people who have given advice i will look in to it via different methods not just get some one else to do this for me!
StevieBee said:
johnfelstead said:
Modern fighter aircraft are 100% fly by wire and cant physically fly without using a computer controlled system to interpret the pilots inputs and control the attitude based on that, they are designed to fly in a highly unstable state to be able to react quickly. Even if you had the conventional mechanical control links in place, the pilot couldnt keep up with the inputs required to keep it flying.
Am I right in thinking that some passenger aircraft now have a mechanical link back up? I seem to recall there was an early problem with Airbus in that the computer didn't want to do what the pilot wanted and the thing did a couple of loop the loops before finally landing safely!no way can you have a 'manual' backup in an airliner, the loads required to move the control surfaces is HUGE. Commercial aircraft have (usually) 3 seperate hydralic systems for the controls....
same goes for the fly-by-wire systems, they have 3 seperate processors watching each other.
from the information that i have found i though they used 5 different systems with 5 different countries doing the programming to avoid errors
different countries will not make the same mistakes i.e. the Germans will be methodical and the french will programme different to them and the good old brits will programme different again
regards
different countries will not make the same mistakes i.e. the Germans will be methodical and the french will programme different to them and the good old brits will programme different again
regards
There was a rather famous crash when the then new Airbus 320 (the first 100% fly by wire passenger jet) was being shown, the computer wanted to land, the pilot wanted to do a fly pass and ascent. Software error resulted in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kHa3WNerjU
HairyBeast said:
does any one know how this works then (fly by wire) any information would be appreciated
regards
But to go back to the original question...regards
One of the advantages of FBW in F1 was that the engineers were able to translate the drivers demands for power (from the throttle travel) into a request for torque at the engine. So, instead of the driver having to modulate their requests to take account of the fact that power will increase with revs, the system would modulate the demands based on throttle position vs total available power.
In short a 50% throttle position may modulate between 30% and 70% of throttle position on the engine side to give 50% of total torque at any revs. The end result was to make the engine more 'driveable' and 'manageable'.
I think...
But to go back to the original question...
One of the advantages of FBW in F1 was that the engineers were able to translate the drivers demands for power (from the throttle travel) into a request for torque at the engine. So, instead of the driver having to modulate their requests to take account of the fact that power will increase with revs, the system would modulate the demands based on throttle position vs total available power.
In short a 50% throttle position may modulate between 30% and 70% of throttle position on the engine side to give 50% of total torque at any revs. The end result was to make the engine more 'driveable' and 'manageable'.
I think...
[/quote]
i thought from information gained that the 2 potentiometers one throttle pedal and the other engine side work at different voltages both the same range but one works at 0v start and one works at 5 volts start when the pedal is pressed say 50% 2.5v the throttle would be at 50% and the engine side would come down to match it at 50% 2.5v controlled by the ecu if they do not match that when there is a problem and the engine or rather the ecu would then fall in to fail safe mode but i might be wrong here as i am in to unkown terratory
regards
One of the advantages of FBW in F1 was that the engineers were able to translate the drivers demands for power (from the throttle travel) into a request for torque at the engine. So, instead of the driver having to modulate their requests to take account of the fact that power will increase with revs, the system would modulate the demands based on throttle position vs total available power.
In short a 50% throttle position may modulate between 30% and 70% of throttle position on the engine side to give 50% of total torque at any revs. The end result was to make the engine more 'driveable' and 'manageable'.
I think...
[/quote]
i thought from information gained that the 2 potentiometers one throttle pedal and the other engine side work at different voltages both the same range but one works at 0v start and one works at 5 volts start when the pedal is pressed say 50% 2.5v the throttle would be at 50% and the engine side would come down to match it at 50% 2.5v controlled by the ecu if they do not match that when there is a problem and the engine or rather the ecu would then fall in to fail safe mode but i might be wrong here as i am in to unkown terratory
regards
What Hobbit is saying is that the ECU controls the throttle buterfly position independantly of the throttle pedal position, to achieve what the driver is trying to achieve with his throttle positioning.
A lot of drivers think going full throttle gives you maximum torque, thats not the case at all, in parts of the rev range you get more torque using a smaller throttle opening because it matches the gas velocities better. (its more complex than that when you factor in other engine params that will work with the demand, rather than purely buterfly position, but thats one of the key factors)
Fly by Wire has allowed rock ape drivers to get the same engine response as a highly skilled driver.
The other main benefit of fly by wire, is you do away with any need to have a mechanical link from cockpit to engine/gearbox, so the tub is stronger and the packaging is far simpler.
A lot of drivers think going full throttle gives you maximum torque, thats not the case at all, in parts of the rev range you get more torque using a smaller throttle opening because it matches the gas velocities better. (its more complex than that when you factor in other engine params that will work with the demand, rather than purely buterfly position, but thats one of the key factors)
Fly by Wire has allowed rock ape drivers to get the same engine response as a highly skilled driver.
The other main benefit of fly by wire, is you do away with any need to have a mechanical link from cockpit to engine/gearbox, so the tub is stronger and the packaging is far simpler.
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