Toyota's Failure!
Discussion
They really shouldn't be where they are for the amount of budget they have. Ralf should NOT be signed for '08, he really has proved himself to be hopeless this year. Away & try your luck in the DTM or something Ralf.
Trulli is average at best. Seems to have an opinion on everything & everybody though - another 'character' that really needs to shut up.
Trulli is average at best. Seems to have an opinion on everything & everybody though - another 'character' that really needs to shut up.
Budget isn't the problem for Toyota - it's the heirarchy.
Most successful teams are basically run by a single patriarch ie. Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, Fabio Briatore, John Todt etc.
It's Toyota's culture to do things via a huge heirarchy of management. So when decisions need to be made, they have to go back to Japan, get discussed, then they come back etc.etc.
This can take an age and in F1 terms, developments need to be made in hours or days - not weeks or months.
Unfortunately for Toyota, to gain similar success would mean empowering an individual with almost complete autonomy from the manufacturer (but with their money and backing of course!). That's just too against the grain as far as their culture goes.
Most successful teams are basically run by a single patriarch ie. Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, Fabio Briatore, John Todt etc.
It's Toyota's culture to do things via a huge heirarchy of management. So when decisions need to be made, they have to go back to Japan, get discussed, then they come back etc.etc.
This can take an age and in F1 terms, developments need to be made in hours or days - not weeks or months.
Unfortunately for Toyota, to gain similar success would mean empowering an individual with almost complete autonomy from the manufacturer (but with their money and backing of course!). That's just too against the grain as far as their culture goes.
It costs Toyota US $ 23 per car sold to fund F1....and they don't really care. Just look at the huge production numbers of Toyota and Lexus globally and the massive profit margins. Motorsport is not part of their marketing and they are only in it because of Honda...and Toyota could buy Honda, Ford, GM and M-B or BMW without even going to the bank for help!!
To win they need to run the team from the UK, with a single decision maker and get two drivers who can develop a car!! Jenson Button could go there for the money as could Alonso!!
To win they need to run the team from the UK, with a single decision maker and get two drivers who can develop a car!! Jenson Button could go there for the money as could Alonso!!
sniff petrol said:
Just watching 'the anatomy of an F1 car' on Discovery turbo - primarily about the Toyota F1 team. It reminded me of their success in rallying in the early/mid 90's so what went wrong when they switched to F1?
Toyota's rally efforts were really driven by Ove Andersson (as per my patriarchal analogy). He had far more power/autonomy over the team in those days, as there was far less money (though still a lot) at stake and they enjoyed success because of it.I'd imagine that the huge budgets involved in F1 (and the global audience) means that you have to get everything rubberstamped by Toyota senior management.
Hence a more protracted process, hence slower development, hence poorer results.
That said, comparing F1 to WRC isn't really comparing apples with apples.
Stig said:
It's Toyota's culture to do things via a huge heirarchy of management. So when decisions need to be made, they have to go back to Japan, get discussed, then they come back etc.etc.
It's not just a Toyota thing, but a Japanese thing. Honda's designers/engineers have known what's wrong with their car since the beginning of the season but haven't been allowed to follow their own instincts to fix it, but rather follow the direction mandated by the Japanese management.LexSport said:
Stig said:
It's Toyota's culture to do things via a huge heirarchy of management. So when decisions need to be made, they have to go back to Japan, get discussed, then they come back etc.etc.
It's not just a Toyota thing, but a Japanese thing. Honda's designers/engineers have known what's wrong with their car since the beginning of the season but haven't been allowed to follow their own instincts to fix it, but rather follow the direction mandated by the Japanese management.Now that it's run by the corporation - well, you know score
Seems like a regular 'higher level management' problem.
The men on the board want to have their say, rather than letting the people who actually know what they're doing get on with it and make advancements.
Seems the Japanese are more prone to this than others for some reason, certainly at thie level.
Even the Americans go to specialists to have motorsport work done. Pratt & Miller for the Corvette ALMS/Le Mans project for example. Weird though, as the Acura project (rebadged Honda) in the ALMS is done all in house in the US, and they're having decent success up against Porsche. You'd have thought the bods back in Japan would have learnt from these sort of results and progress, wouldn't you?
The men on the board want to have their say, rather than letting the people who actually know what they're doing get on with it and make advancements.
Seems the Japanese are more prone to this than others for some reason, certainly at thie level.
Even the Americans go to specialists to have motorsport work done. Pratt & Miller for the Corvette ALMS/Le Mans project for example. Weird though, as the Acura project (rebadged Honda) in the ALMS is done all in house in the US, and they're having decent success up against Porsche. You'd have thought the bods back in Japan would have learnt from these sort of results and progress, wouldn't you?
There's also the fact that there just aren't that many people on the planet capable of designing and running an F1 car. Even if you have the most money, if the personnel aren't available, you can struggle.
Toyota do seem to be stuck 'out of the way' in Germany, too. I'd imagine some people would rather be in Italy or the motor racing belt in Northamptonshire.
Toyota do seem to be stuck 'out of the way' in Germany, too. I'd imagine some people would rather be in Italy or the motor racing belt in Northamptonshire.
Two main problems. Location and corporate management. Cologne is not the place of choice for talented F1 engineers to live, so most of their engineers are mercinaries. And too much inertia and lack of responsibility in their management. I wonder how long they'll keep wasting their money?
zac510 said:
World transport is practically good enough and races moving away from Europe.. maybe it is time to work out of Japan? Tap that engineering pool before Honda does.
That said, some brilliant cars have come out of Cologne - Toyota TS020, their Grp A WRC winning cars..
Haven't seen a decent F1 car come out of Cologne yet though and they've had plenty of time and money to make it happen. As for Japan, where's this F1 engineering pool then? Last time I looked it was mainly in Northamptonshire. There are some talented Japanese engineers, but they don't have the first clue about designing, building or running F1 cars. Engines are another matter though. That's where they have got some history, although they haven't produced the best engines for many years.That said, some brilliant cars have come out of Cologne - Toyota TS020, their Grp A WRC winning cars..
uktrailmonster said:
Haven't seen a decent F1 car come out of Cologne yet though and they've had plenty of time and money to make it happen. As for Japan, where's this F1 engineering pool then? Last time I looked it was mainly in Northamptonshire. There are some talented Japanese engineers, but they don't have the first clue about designing, building or running F1 cars. Engines are another matter though. That's where they have got some history, although they haven't produced the best engines for many years.
True they are not F1 engineers, but they have a good reputation for education, work ethic and road car engineering so there has to be some merit in the idea!belleair302 said:
they are only in it because of Honda...and Toyota could buy Honda
id like to see where u get your figures.
id put good money on it that honda motorcycles bring in more money than toyota do totally.
i would place a fair size bet on the fact that honda racing arm, HRC, has a bigger budget just for motogp than toyslowta do for an f1 team per year......
as for the cars, it is widely acknowledged that honda are actually the worlds biggest and richest car manufacturer and that is only 60% of there total income..............
toyota buy honda???
oh look, theres those damn flying pigs again
Actually they were making progress under MG before they fired him. The reason the 06 car was a dog was due to the switch to Bridgestone rubber, if they had stayed with michelin then race results could have been very good last year.
I think before long the German opt will be closed down, a big cheque handed to uncle frank and patrick and grove becomes the new f1 team.
I think before long the German opt will be closed down, a big cheque handed to uncle frank and patrick and grove becomes the new f1 team.
uktrailmonster said:
castrolcraig - hope you're not a betting man!! Toyota are the 2nd largest motor manufacturer in the world (over 8 million vehicles p/a). Honda are at number 5 with around 3.5 million.
As for Honda's motogp budget being bigger than Toyota's F1 spend, GTFOOH!!!
actually im quite a big betting man, toyotas annual f1 budget is around 300million, hrc's budget last season for motogp ONLY was 320million.....As for Honda's motogp budget being bigger than Toyota's F1 spend, GTFOOH!!!
and as for ur figures, u say it all, toyota only do cars, honda however have cars bikes and several other things in there portfolio
if u look at there annual profits last financial year, i think u will find honda did considerably better than there slow countrymen............
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