a.sutil

[joncon]

was that the best drive ,in a lesser team since damon hill in the arrows at the hungarian gp ?
outstanding performance

[Plug550]

I see where you're coming from, but I think Vettels actual 5th in the the old Minardi (Ok, Jaguar), when both Ferraris and McLarens finished the race is something to write home about. First you have to finish etc...

[rubystone]

Plug550 said:

I see where you're coming from, but I think Vettels actual 5th in the the old Minardi (Ok, Jaguar), when both Ferraris and McLarens finished the race is something to write home about. First you have to finish etc...

Minardi? Jaguar?...where have you been for the past 8 years?...

Vettel was driving the STR3 at its first GP - it's actually the same car (more or less) as the RB4, Red Bull's 2008 car....which, I'd venture, has had a lot more US$ spent on it than this year's Force India

[Plug550]

rubystone said:

Plug550 said:

I see where you're coming from, but I think Vettels actual 5th in the the old Minardi (Ok, Jaguar), when both Ferraris and McLarens finished the race is something to write home about. First you have to finish etc...

Minardi? Jaguar?...where have you been for the past 8 years?...

Vettel was driving the STR3 at its first GP - it's actually the same car (more or less) as the RB4, Red Bull's 2008 car....which, I'd venture, has had a lot more US$ spent on it than this year's Force India

Thats a tad touchy. I've watched EVERY race for the last 30 odd years. My point is that just 2 seasons ago, Team Torro Rosso was trading as Minardi. This year, they are using last years Red Bull car (or not, depending upon the rule book) which in turn is a developement of the Jaguar of just 3 seasons ago. I was being very complimentary towards Team Torro Rosso, and in turn Seb Vettal, and the leap in performance in such a short time. Jeez.

I was going to highlight the stunning debut of the 'new' STR3, but believed most avid followers of these forums would see right through that.

Back on topic. Sutil did just fine, and is no doubt a talent worthy of a more able chariot, but didn't get to finish. So stand by original point that only results count.

NB. What about Webbers 4th (or was it 5th) in the MINARDI in Melbourne a few years ago?

[Marc W]

Plug550 said:

NB. What about Webbers 4th (or was it 5th) in the MINARDI in Melbourne a few years ago?

5th in 2002

[egomeister]

Plug550 said:

rubystone said:

Plug550 said:

I see where you're coming from, but I think Vettels actual 5th in the the old Minardi (Ok, Jaguar), when both Ferraris and McLarens finished the race is something to write home about. First you have to finish etc...

Minardi? Jaguar?...where have you been for the past 8 years?...

Vettel was driving the STR3 at its first GP - it's actually the same car (more or less) as the RB4, Red Bull's 2008 car....which, I'd venture, has had a lot more US$ spent on it than this year's Force India

Thats a tad touchy. I've watched EVERY race for the last 30 odd years. My point is that just 2 seasons ago, Team Torro Rosso was trading as Minardi. This year, they are using last years Red Bull car (or not, depending upon the rule book) which in turn is a developement of the Jaguar of just 3 seasons ago. I was being very complimentary towards Team Torro Rosso, and in turn Seb Vettal, and the leap in performance in such a short time. Jeez.

I was going to highlight the stunning debut of the 'new' STR3, but believed most avid followers of these forums would see right through that.

Back on topic. Sutil did just fine, and is no doubt a talent worthy of a more able chariot, but didn't get to finish. So stand by original point that only results count.

NB. What about Webbers 4th (or was it 5th) in the MINARDI in Melbourne a few years ago?

The STR3 is this years RBR with the rear end adapted to the Ferrari engine.
The STR2 (2007 & 2008 up to Turkey) was the 2007 RBR, again adapted to the Ferrari engine. This was Neweys first Redbull car, and effectively a clean sheet design, so not a development of the Jag as such - I don't think you could trace much on that car back to the Jag days...

[LocoBlade]

Would love to hear some supporting evidence on the RB3 being an evolution of the last Jag, let alone the latest RB4/STR3 which was actually raced!

The original 2005 Red Bull, and subsequent STR (in 2006) certainly was an evolution of the Jaguar, running with the rev limited V10, whilst Red Bull themselves ran the RB2 in 2006 with Ferrari V8 engine which may or may not have been an evolution of the RB1.

Newey designed the RB3 in 2007 pretty much from a clean slate though, and the RB4 / STR3 is an evolution of that. In fact Id say there's far more Mclaren design philosophy (from Newey's influence) in those cars than anything else, certainly any design link to the 2004 Jag is tenuious to say the least, other than they were made in the same factories.

[skinny]

it was impressive, but i thought vettels last year in japan (before he crashed) and china were as good if not better.

[rubystone]

egomeister said:

The STR3 is this years RBR with the rear end adapted to the Ferrari engine.
The STR2 (2007 & 2008 up to Turkey) was the 2007 RBR, again adapted to the Ferrari engine. This was Neweys first Redbull car, and effectively a clean sheet design, so not a development of the Jag as such - I don't think you could trace much on that car back to the Jag days...

Yes, that was kinda the point I was making. Vettel is a good driver, but then so is Bourdais. STR have the resources of Newey's design team available to them, but from what I can see, do not have the same level of resources that RBR have from a race or test perspective. That has to impact their ability to compete on the same level as RBR - and that's where I agree with the guy who, from his 2 line post, seemed to be suggesting they were using a car that was based on a Minardi. Which is just plain wrong.

[egomeister]

rubystone said:

egomeister said:

The STR3 is this years RBR with the rear end adapted to the Ferrari engine.
The STR2 (2007 & 2008 up to Turkey) was the 2007 RBR, again adapted to the Ferrari engine. This was Neweys first Redbull car, and effectively a clean sheet design, so not a development of the Jag as such - I don't think you could trace much on that car back to the Jag days...

Yes, that was kinda the point I was making. Vettel is a good driver, but then so is Bourdais. STR have the resources of Newey's design team available to them, but from what I can see, do not have the same level of resources that RBR have from a race or test perspective. That has to impact their ability to compete on the same level as RBR - and that's where I agree with the guy who, from his 2 line post, seemed to be suggesting they were using a car that was based on a Minardi. Which is just plain wrong.

Yep, I was also responding to plug550.

Would agree totally about the STR being unable to run the car to the same level as RBR - see the early season performance in 2007 for proof.

[GBRM]

joncon said:

was that the best drive ,in a lesser team since damon hill in the arrows at the hungarian gp ?
outstanding performance

Definitely gets the thumbs up from me and the way it ended was a travesty; surely a WDC knows how to brake and not knock someone off?!

[MrKipling43]

GBRM said:

Definitely gets the thumbs up from me and the way it ended was a travesty; surely a WDC knows how to brake and not knock someone off?!

I think that's a bit harsh. If it had happened at any other circuit I would agree whole heartedly, but at Monaco the surface is far from perfect - you're much more likely to get the car flung out from under you there, with no warning at all. And it went so fast too, there was no way he could hold on to it.

I will concede that he may have been trying a bit too hard.

[FourWheelDrift]

Not finished but great performances.

Pier-Luigi Martini put the Minardi-Ford on the front row of the grid for the 1990 US GP. That was impressive.

Race wise I might suggest Jean Alesi in the same race driving the Tyrrell against Senna's McLaren.

[GBRM]

MrKipling43 said:

GBRM said:

Definitely gets the thumbs up from me and the way it ended was a travesty; surely a WDC knows how to brake and not knock someone off?!

I think that's a bit harsh. If it had happened at any other circuit I would agree whole heartedly, but at Monaco the surface is far from perfect - you're much more likely to get the car flung out from under you there, with no warning at all. And it went so fast too, there was no way he could hold on to it.

I will concede that he may have been trying a bit too hard.

Maybe harsh but IMHO he shouldn't have even tried to overtake there and if he wasn't trying to overtake did you see any other drivers have trouble braking there on the re-start?

I've no axe to grind with KR or Ferrari but races like that don't happen often (if at all) for smaller teams and I also think if Sutil had of knocked Raikkonen off there would have been ramifications.

Edited by GBRM on Thursday 29th May 13:05

[Waiter]

GBRM said:

…he shouldn't have even tried to overtake there…

err... he didn't.

[anonymous-user]

i'm reserving judgement for a few more months. everyone went gaga over Pizzonia in the Jaguar after a season in F3 and a few wet races in the Jaguar but he failed to set the world alight... Sutil will most likely not feature in the top ten again this season and be filed with Davidson as another "if only he had a good car"....

[LocoBlade]

Waiter said:

GBRM said:

…he shouldn't have even tried to overtake there…

err... he didn't.

Exactly. To even have the remotest chance of overtaking there, he'd have needed to be within a car length of Sutil's gearbox exiting the tunnel. As it was he was probably 10-15 car lengths back and simply locked the rears because they were a bit cold and snatchy. Its not a mistake you'd expect a world champion to make too often, but a simple mistake all the same.

[joncon]

i know he never finished the race, but the pace at which he drove , setting fastest race laps along the way, keeping out of trouble ( at least of his own making ), was well above the performance expected of a car in its infancy.... awesome...
yes it has a ferrari engine.... customer engine which historically have never done well.
i wonder how much money it has cost the team ??
will they get another chance this year ??

[hornet]

Was certainly a assured drive, especially when the likes of Alonso, Glock and Piquet Jr were throwing it at the barriers. Sato's efforts in Canada last year must be up there in terms of best drives in inferior machinery?

[GBRM]

LocoBlade said:

Waiter said:

GBRM said:

…he shouldn't have even tried to overtake there…

err... he didn't.

Exactly. To even have the remotest chance of overtaking there, he'd have needed to be within a car length of Sutil's gearbox exiting the tunnel. As it was he was probably 10-15 car lengths back and simply locked the rears because they were a bit cold and snatchy. Its not a mistake you'd expect a world champion to make too often, but a simple mistake all the same.

I agree it was a mistake but I didn't see anyone else make the same mistake, so as I said before, IMHO he should have had some form of punishement for it.

Hopefully the whole incident will have a galvanising affect on the team and they can maybe get another good result but the sort of tracks coming up will be difficuly, except maybe Valencia.