Driver 'involvement' dieing? Good or bad?
Discussion
I've just watched that Nissan GTR driver lap of the 'Ring at under 7.30.
Jesus, that's an unbelievably good lap.
I spotted a couple of areas where I think he could have used a higher gear, maybe.
And the only oversteer I could see during the whole lap was on the entrance to the two Karussells. Otherwise, nothing. Wow.
Now this interesting debate of whether driver involvement is being ignored seems to go top a higher level on the evidence of this video. I mean, was he involved or was he a passenger?
I've always believed that involvement doesn't matter, so long as the result is faster (I'm a racer at heart, so fastest wins.) But I must admit I'm quite shocked how little he had to do to get round so quick.
Jesus, that's an unbelievably good lap.
I spotted a couple of areas where I think he could have used a higher gear, maybe.
And the only oversteer I could see during the whole lap was on the entrance to the two Karussells. Otherwise, nothing. Wow.
Now this interesting debate of whether driver involvement is being ignored seems to go top a higher level on the evidence of this video. I mean, was he involved or was he a passenger?
I've always believed that involvement doesn't matter, so long as the result is faster (I'm a racer at heart, so fastest wins.) But I must admit I'm quite shocked how little he had to do to get round so quick.
dxb335d said:
f
k me, think people are getting a little het up about this driver involvment bks.
He still had to steer/brake/accelerate his way round the nurburgring. He (i have not seen the vid) Must be a capable driver in a very capable car which = a good time.
Exactly.k me, think people are getting a little het up about this driver involvment bks. He still had to steer/brake/accelerate his way round the nurburgring. He (i have not seen the vid) Must be a capable driver in a very capable car which = a good time.
The smoother you are generally the faster you are. A car that handles well and gives confidence makes it easyer to be smooth and fast.
I dont see how you can judge the feedback the driver is getting from a video.
If you watch F1 qualifying you will see that the fast guys look like they are doing little work in comparison to the Force India cars. Its not that the force india gives more feedback.. its handling is worse and more corrections and driver imput is needed.
ph123 said:
Now this interesting debate of whether driver involvement is being ignored seems to go top a higher level on the evidence of this video. I mean, was he involved or was he a passenger?
What do you mean by 'driver involvement' and what makes you say it's being ignored (by whom)? Are you trying to say that he didn't seem very excited, or wasn't paying as much attention his driving as he should have done? Or what?Wonder what peoples reactions to this lap would have been if the car was moving about and sliding all over the track. Locking wheels and brakes, smoking tyres etc. I suspect people would have said it looked like an undrive'able mess. Instead it puts in a smooth lap and a good time and people say it's boring. What's even stranger is from the people who say it is boring and too easy to drive, how many have actually driven the car?
-
Stuart
-
Stuart
I concur.
A lot of driving skill goes on under the radar.
If you were a good driver , (like myself
) you would realise how much is involved in making it look so easy. He will be spending an awful lot of time ever so gently squeezing the brakes to keep the chassis settled and his experience of the track means he will know exactly where he can carry speed.
I am sometimes a bit dissapointed that driving fast for me isn't as edgy or exciting for me as I think it should be when on track but its because I automatically drive smoothly and big moments don't present themselves to me.
I always wanted to be an oversteering tyre burning hero when I was younger but the more time I spent on track the less my driving became like that and the faster my laptimes got.
A lot of driving skill goes on under the radar.
If you were a good driver , (like myself
) you would realise how much is involved in making it look so easy. He will be spending an awful lot of time ever so gently squeezing the brakes to keep the chassis settled and his experience of the track means he will know exactly where he can carry speed.I am sometimes a bit dissapointed that driving fast for me isn't as edgy or exciting for me as I think it should be when on track but its because I automatically drive smoothly and big moments don't present themselves to me.
I always wanted to be an oversteering tyre burning hero when I was younger but the more time I spent on track the less my driving became like that and the faster my laptimes got.
ph123 said:
I've just watched that Nissan GTR driver lap of the 'Ring at under 7.30.
Jesus, that's an unbelievably good lap.
I spotted a couple of areas where I think he could have used a higher gear, maybe.
And the only oversteer I could see during the whole lap was on the entrance to the two Karussells. Otherwise, nothing. Wow.
Now this interesting debate of whether driver involvement is being ignored seems to go top a higher level on the evidence of this video. I mean, was he involved or was he a passenger?
I've always believed that involvement doesn't matter, so long as the result is faster (I'm a racer at heart, so fastest wins.) But I must admit I'm quite shocked how little he had to do to get round so quick.
I know what you mean. The first track day i ever did (Anglesey) was in my MGB, ahem. Now of course, driving a classic car as fast as it will go is very much an involving experience, as any visitor to the Goodwood revival will confirm.Jesus, that's an unbelievably good lap.
I spotted a couple of areas where I think he could have used a higher gear, maybe.
And the only oversteer I could see during the whole lap was on the entrance to the two Karussells. Otherwise, nothing. Wow.
Now this interesting debate of whether driver involvement is being ignored seems to go top a higher level on the evidence of this video. I mean, was he involved or was he a passenger?
I've always believed that involvement doesn't matter, so long as the result is faster (I'm a racer at heart, so fastest wins.) But I must admit I'm quite shocked how little he had to do to get round so quick.
On said track day i was very kindly given a ride in a Lotus 340R (I think - it was the 'moon buggy' car). Now of course it was very fast, but the drivers hands hardly moved at the wheel, and the car required just one gearchange up and one down per lap. It was fast, but it didn't seem to need much involvement from the driver at all, and it really left me wondering what it was all about. It didn't seem like much fun.
HBGT, I think you are probably right.
I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s the advancement of science that takes the fun out of so many things nowadays.
It’s all to do with tyre development and suspension to match it. I used to race a GT2 (993) Porsche and a GT3 (996) couple of seasons later; the difference was marked even then. The GT2 very much a short wheel based snappy animal loads of pitch and yaw, the GT3 altogether a more settled anaemic carriage on the limit. But pro-rata faster.
I still have a foot firmly in the ‘faster’ camp; I don’t ever want to see progress held up by visions that things were better in the past. The sheer speed of this Nissan at the Ring so ably conducted, is awesome.
Quite how you re-introduce tactility and balance being down to the driver must lie with tyre choice I guess for the particular car, but it’s unreasonable to expect manufacturers to take a step backwards. The current GT3 RS I think still has the ultimate expression of finessing driver involvement, although maybe there are other of these artificially introduced ingredients that are specifically introduced to make the driver feel good.
The ultimate expression of this unsurprisingly from the Italians appears to be in the fuel injection system on the new Alfa 8C, which throws some unburnt fuel into the system to make is go crackle pop on downshifts and the like. Theatricals to make you feel good; nothing to do with performance which nevertheless is there in abundance.
I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s the advancement of science that takes the fun out of so many things nowadays.
It’s all to do with tyre development and suspension to match it. I used to race a GT2 (993) Porsche and a GT3 (996) couple of seasons later; the difference was marked even then. The GT2 very much a short wheel based snappy animal loads of pitch and yaw, the GT3 altogether a more settled anaemic carriage on the limit. But pro-rata faster.
I still have a foot firmly in the ‘faster’ camp; I don’t ever want to see progress held up by visions that things were better in the past. The sheer speed of this Nissan at the Ring so ably conducted, is awesome.
Quite how you re-introduce tactility and balance being down to the driver must lie with tyre choice I guess for the particular car, but it’s unreasonable to expect manufacturers to take a step backwards. The current GT3 RS I think still has the ultimate expression of finessing driver involvement, although maybe there are other of these artificially introduced ingredients that are specifically introduced to make the driver feel good.
The ultimate expression of this unsurprisingly from the Italians appears to be in the fuel injection system on the new Alfa 8C, which throws some unburnt fuel into the system to make is go crackle pop on downshifts and the like. Theatricals to make you feel good; nothing to do with performance which nevertheless is there in abundance.
I see JC is saying much the same about the Nissan GT-R in the Sunday times today. Fantastic car, but "I dare say that if Michael Schumacher were to find himself in the eye of an Arctic blizzard, escaping from an exploding volcano, he might discover 10% of this car’s abilities. But you? Me? Here? Forget it.
Nissan, then, has done something odd. It has built a car for a time and a place and a species that simply don’t exist."
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_styl...
Nissan, then, has done something odd. It has built a car for a time and a place and a species that simply don’t exist."
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_styl...
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff