KERS

[R360]

KERS - Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems - How will this work in F1 next year and what effects is it likely to have to lap times.
How will this work now that the cars are going to be running slick tyres again?

[Graham E]

They're going to sellotape one of those seiko watches in the rim, then they never have to go to Timpsons again.

[FourWheelDrift]

Basically on braking power will be stored and then either transferred mechanically (flywheel) or electrically to the driver at a press of a button for more power and speed for overtaking, getting closer to the car in front, blocking a faster car coming up to lap them and give their team mate more advantage ahead that sort of thing.

However with more weight in the car there is less ballast to move around to bring the car up to minimum weight with the driver on board. So the heavier drivers have already started making their excuses that they will be disadvantaged compared to the lighter greyhound jockeys who will be able to have more ballast they can move around for best balance and handling.

[JayKaybi]

FourWheelDrift said:

However with more weight in the car there is less ballast to move around to bring the car up to minimum weight with the driver on board. So the heavier drivers have already started making their excuses that they will be disadvantaged compared to the lighter greyhound jockeys who will be able to have more ballast they can move around for best balance and handling.

But surely that's already the case, albeit to a lesser extent?

[wobert]

I used to work for Torotrak......they are supplying some of the units for F1 use.....

http://www.torotrak.com/Marketing+information/Pres...

[Holst]

Is there any info on what system most teams are going to go with.

I would expect most teams to go with electrical systems, but ive only seen info on the BMW system which is definatley electical (shocked a mechanic)

I wonder how "enviromentally friendly" the batterys/capacitors they are using are? Very unfriendly I suspect.

[R360]

FourWheelDrift said:

Basically on braking power will be stored and then either transferred mechanically (flywheel) or electrically to the driver at a press of a button for more power and speed for overtaking, getting closer to the car in front, blocking a faster car coming up to lap them and give their team mate more advantage ahead that sort of thing.

So in theory the stored energy could be used as a boost function to give the cars a few extra BHP to help them over take / put in a fast lap.
That should be really interesting, i suppose it will come down to the teams who have the most advanced system and the capabilities of storing the highest amount of energy.
Has there been any testing of these systems yet?

[FourWheelDrift]

JayKaybi said:

FourWheelDrift said:

However with more weight in the car there is less ballast to move around to bring the car up to minimum weight with the driver on board. So the heavier drivers have already started making their excuses that they will be disadvantaged compared to the lighter greyhound jockeys who will be able to have more ballast they can move around for best balance and handling.

But surely that's already the case, albeit to a lesser extent?

Yes, but they are saying the KERS system will be a lot of weight in one position and the balance in an F1 car is very critical. If one driver can have 20kg more than another to move around, it's a lot.

Here's Mark Webber (I would have guessed) moaning about it in preparation for 2009.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72047

[FourWheelDrift]

R360 said:

Has there been any testing of these systems yet?

Yep, BMW have been regularly electrocuting their pit crews.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/166672-0/b...

[anonymous-user]

A much smarter guy than me has said KERS is a complete blind alley technically. It's a marketing tool for the sport to combat the greenies, it wont bring anything of worth to the car industry.

The only thing i see it doing is making the cars more dangerous.

[skinny]

Holst said:

Is there any info on what system most teams are going to go with.

I would expect most teams to go with electrical systems, but ive only seen info on the BMW system which is definatley electical (shocked a mechanic)

I wonder how "enviromentally friendly" the batterys/capacitors they are using are? Very unfriendly I suspect.

incredibly. i can't remember how long they last but they will be going through an awful lot of battery packs over the season. there is no positive green element to this whatsoever.

i believe everyone is going battery / supercapacitor apart from williams with their dual super flywheel.

effect on laptimes is going to be small i'd have thought - a lot of focus is at the moment going on weight reduction, as the total stored energy, rate of recovery and use is fixed at fairly conservative figures so that at least initially it's going to fairly close as to whether it gives any advantage. at least one team (likely toyota) are not expected to use KERS until the middle of the season - it is optional for '09.

Edited by skinny on Tuesday 11th November 17:13

[mchammer89]

Will they be able to use it in quali?

[FourWheelDrift]

mchammer89 said:

Will they be able to use it in quali?

No way to stop them using it.

[zac510]

FourWheelDrift said:

R360 said:

Has there been any testing of these systems yet?

Yep, BMW have been regularly electrocuting their pit crews.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/166672-0/b...

Except replace regularly with 5 months ago and crews with one crew member.

[zac510]

I have heard that McLaren were using a hydraulic system but they've been very quiet about it all and may have just been trialing hydraulic but running with something else.

Williams purchased the Flybrid company to gain some research. Ferrari using Magneti Marelli system (not sure of storage type).. Zytek claim to be developing a system for an unnamed F1 team.

Most of the criticism of the KERS system technology is really the fault of the regulatory restrictions being on rear axle only, limited in per lap output of 60kW and only being able to be deployed by the driver in one burst.

That said, some teams still seem to be struggling with a solution that internet punters are criticising as being too basic and primitive!

I belive they are aiming for 100kW in 2011 and 200kW and introduce front axle recovery systems. In those 4-5 years from what I understand because of the output limit (think of it as like the rpm limit) the development will be focused on the weight and mass of the system, which are the exact limitations of this system in road vehicles.

It's funny how people complain about F1 having no relevance to road cars, but when something is introduced that is relevant they just criticise it!

[groomi]

I'm watching Williams with great interest on this one. They've gone their own way with a mechanical rather than electrical solution. On the plus side it must be (relatively) simpler and therefore cheaper and perhaps more reliable, but on the other hand it can't be spread around the car like an electrical system can, so the weight distribution issue is perhaps greater.

I hope it ends up the best system, but then ofcourse as the only users of said system they will be open to it being banned...

[zac510]

I believe Flybrid have already crash tested their system when it's running flat out.

Just looking back, 200kW in 2013? +700hp from the engine, that's 1000hp

[anonymous-user]

zac510 said:

It's funny how people complain about F1 having no relevance to road cars, but when something is introduced that is relevant they just criticise it!

It's not relevant to road car technology though Zac, they missed that boat a decade ago when the FIA banned teams from doing what was then cutting edge research, some teams were already trialling a form of KERS and were told it wasn't allowed, same with CVT transmitions. What you will see in F1 will be so bespoke and so out of step with the way road cars are going (and have been and then binned in development) it will have zero import to moving the road car technology forward.

The FIA are talking about a standard unit for 2010 anyway, so any R&D this year will be wasted too if they go ahead with that on cost cutting grounds.

I am not saying it isn't interesting technology, it is, but it's a fallacy to think it has any relevance to what we will see on road cars. I am concerned with the safety aspects of the technology, especially driver and marshal safety, we have decades of systems safety advances in other areas of the cars, but this has the potential to make a mess if things go wrong in a not yet understood way.

Edited by johnfelstead on Wednesday 12th November 01:00

[zac510]

I don't understand how it's irrelevant. No matter what kind of energy powers our cars in the future, energy recovery from braking is going to be somewhere where the engineers can increase overall vehicle efficiency. I simply don't see why it wouldn't be?
It might only become irrelevant if we stumble on a new, infinite source of cheap energy, in which case we would just return to wasting braking like we have been with petrol for the last hundred years

Apart from that the only way I see it as irrelevant is the fact that it's not on the front axle and the FIA plan to rectify that in the future when they progressively increase the efficiency of the unit. I clarified that interpretation of the rules in my earlier post.

edit: yes a standard unit would throw this all out the window

Edited by zac510 on Wednesday 12th November 09:47

[woof]

From the figures I've seen - the units will way from 10 - 20 kgs and might be worth 2/10 - 3/10th a sec per lap

The only problem with that is that carrying an extra 10kgs of weight will cost you 2/10th to 5/10ths depending on the circuit !

So you have to question why any team would bother running with it.

Unless KERS can add at least 5/10ths to a lap time - what's the point of using it ???