DTM v super cup v LMS v WTC v FIA gt......

[Jim Campbell]

Reading the Autosport top 50 drivers today brought up a question that i have had for a while, with so many touring/endurance cars and prototype classes what is the pecking order amongst them? Would i be right in saying that DTM is towards the top.

Ta

[flemke]

Jim Campbell said:

Reading the Autosport top 50 drivers today brought up a question that i have had for a while, with so many touring/endurance cars and prototype classes what is the pecking order amongst them? Would i be right in saying that DTM is towards the top.

Ta

Towards the top, perhaps, but I don't think that DTM can be at the top, because the cars are less sophisticated than prototypes, there are really only two teams competing, it's largely a German national series, and on a commercial as well as on a competitive level it is well below NASCAR. Also, the fact that the results are heavily manipulated within each of the two teams tends to undermine the credibility of the series.

[Hammerwerfer]

DTM is a Euro version of NASCAR.

Slightly more sophisticated, but nothing like it was years ago in the days of GpA and homologation specials that we could actually buy.

[Jim Campbell]

Surly DTM is held in a higher regard than say WTC because of the few drivers we also do F1 testing and may get a seat soon. Althought there are some fairly impressive CV's in LMS. Drivers tend to graduate from supercup to DTM yes? How about WTC compared to FIA GT or LMS i always imagined GT or LMS to be a higer standard maybe thats because they are faster.

Ta

[35secToNuvolari]

Jim Campbell said:

Surly DTM is held in a higher regard than say WTC because of the few drivers we also do F1 testing and may get a seat soon. Althought there are some fairly impressive CV's in LMS. Drivers tend to graduate from supercup to DTM yes? How about WTC compared to FIA GT or LMS i always imagined GT or LMS to be a higer standard maybe thats because they are faster.

Ta

I think you've transistioned from ranking the cars and formulae to ranking the the respectability of the drivers in each series. I don't think the rankings would necessarily be the same.

Edited by 35secToNuvolari on Tuesday 20th January 19:39

[Marc W]

Hammerwerfer said:

DTM is a Euro version of NASCAR.

Slightly more sophisticated, but nothing like it was years ago in the days of GpA and homologation specials that we could actually buy.

It's a huge amount more sophisticated than NASCAR!

[zac510]

One thing I like about FIA GT and LMS drivers is it's not quite a full time career, so they have to try and drive elsewhere when they can.. Either in both series, or something like S2000 like Sarrazin is doing at the moment. So they have to be versatile.

The DTM rules aside the driver layout does look quite good despite half of it looking like an F1 retirement home.

Edited by zac510 on Tuesday 20th January 20:21

[Simon Mason]

Jim Campbell said:

Reading the Autosport top 50 drivers today brought up a question that i have had for a while, with so many touring/endurance cars and prototype classes what is the pecking order amongst them? Would i be right in saying that DTM is towards the top.

Ta

Ultimately any of the series you mention are of equal status in drivers terms because they are all uber competitive. Granted DTM perhaps has the most kudos because of the car performance, manufacturers and budgets but its no more competitive than the others in real terms of effort and skill from drivers and teams. LMS is only there because of its kudos though, there are a few very very good drivers in it but allot more very wealthy guys living the dream so hardly an uber competitive environment... but a very competitive one none the less.

IMO

[blueST]

The Midweek Motorsport Podcast tried to do a similar thing for single seaters during last year, with F1 obviously at the top of the ladder. It did get quite amusing when trying to work out things like if World Series by Renault is higher than GP2 Asia or if Euro F3 beats A1 GP. It was only then I relised just how many different categories there are, and that didn't take into account tin-tops or sportscars.

[blueST]

Based on 2008, for Europe I would put LMS at the top as you had an Audi and Peugeot works effort with top flight drivers in both teams. This year, with only Peugeot having a works entry I'm not so sure.

[TimCrighton]

I basic problem is there are far too many series to call it!!

I suppose that you'd probably split Sports Cars away from Touring Cars which would give you something like:

Le Mans
LMS or ALMS/Daytona 24 hour
FIA GT/Grand AM DP
FIA GT3/Grand AM GT/Open GT International/Porsche Supercup
British GT3/Porsche Carrera Cup/FIA GT4 Cup
British GT4
BritCar/GT Cup


Touring Car wise for me:

DTM
WTCC/NASCAR (but almost in a seperate class because those guys are earning BIG money but the car technology is relatively restrained)
BTCC/SEAT Cupra EuroCup
SEAT SuperCopa/Clio Cup Europe
Clio Cup UK

Edited by TimCrighton on Wednesday 21st January 18:43

Edited by TimCrighton on Wednesday 21st January 18:44

[Spiritual_Beggar]

The ALMS is a really exciting series to watch! On quite regularly (or was) on Motors TV.

Those things are rapid!!! They have an overall top speed that is quicker than an F1 car.

[chevronb37]

NASCAR is undoubtably the biggest of those discussed. In Europe, DTM is king of the hill, in my opinion, although I'd argue that its 1994/1995 hayday during the old Class 1 days were its greatest period. LMS is an awesome series, but there have been virtually no people turning up to prototype events in this country for the last 10 years. The LMS is now turning into a decent product and Patrick Peter is a shrewd operator, who has been doing this for a long time now. I can see it one day overtaking DTM, but it must maintain manufacturer support.

[mark69sheer]

I think we need to stick the Aussie V8s somewhere here. Last years Bathurst was awesome stuff.

[lewis1]

in terms of a young driver. i think that dtm is the best payed drive there is if you cant get to formula one. LMS is getting there with people like danny watts etc realising where they can go and get noticed and be competitive. but i think it may become abit more of a graveyard for the not so lucky driver.

[rude-boy]

TimCrighton said:

I basic problem is there are far too many series to call it!!

I suppose that you'd probably split Sports Cars away from Touring Cars which would give you something like:

Le Mans
LMS or ALMS/Daytona 24 hour
FIA GT/Grand AM DP
FIA GT3/Grand AM GT/Open GT International/Porsche Supercup
British GT3/Porsche Carrera Cup/FIA GT4 Cup
British GT4
BritCar/GT Cup

I think that you are way out on Porsche Carrera Cup being above GT4. The only real difference between that and, say, the Clios, is that a few people get sub'd rides and there is more folding.

Then again look at where you have put Britcar. I heard one of the front running cars last year being described as an 800bhp kart with aero and foot wide slicks. To consistently get the best lap times out of that over a stint would require significantly more ability than to do the same over a 30 minute race in a PCC car (particularly a 997 as opposed to a 996 so I have heard).

Open GT is another which looks odd where it rests in that list

Part of the problem, as others have alluded to is also not just the number of different series and their relative pace, but the drivers who tend to compete in them. There are some 3rd drivers in LM/ALMs/LMS who would struggle to get a drive in any of the series you mention if it were not for their wallets.

Edited by rude-boy on Thursday 22 January 14:29

[Ahonen]

rude-boy said:

Then again look at where you have put Britcar. I heard one of the front running cars last year being described as an 800bhp kart with aero and foot wide slicks.

I take offence at that. Ours are well over two feet wide...

Might add a sensible reply in a while, as I've worked in most of the series mentioned above.

[rude-boy]

Ahonen said:

rude-boy said:

Then again look at where you have put Britcar. I heard one of the front running cars last year being described as an 800bhp kart with aero and foot wide slicks.

I take offence at that. Ours are well over two feet wide...

Might add a sensible reply in a while, as I've worked in most of the series mentioned above.

Where are you guys playing this year?

[Dr JonboyG]

TimCrighton said:

I basic problem is there are far too many series to call it!!

I suppose that you'd probably split Sports Cars away from Touring Cars which would give you something like:

Le Mans
LMS or ALMS/Daytona 24 hour
FIA GT/Grand AM DP
FIA GT3/Grand AM GT/Open GT International/Porsche Supercup
British GT3/Porsche Carrera Cup/FIA GT4 Cup
British GT4
BritCar/GT Cup

The Daytona Prototypes might make for good races, but the cars are pretty prehistoric. Certainly much less developed than FIA GT. The GT class in the Rolex series is either GT3 Cup cars or spaceframe cars.