Max on F1 diffusers

[AlpineWhite]

From http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73816

Mosley said: "It's a very clever device and you can make a very good case for saying that it's legal and a very good case for saying that it's illegal. It's going to be difficult.

"What's actually happened is that teams are saying 'We think it's illegal for this and this reason.'

"If there had been more time before the detailed objections to the system were sent in, I would probably have sent it to the FIA Court of Appeal before Australia. And actually I have given thought to that this week. But there isn't time. It wouldn't be fair. I think the thing will probably come to some sort of a head in Australia."

The most likely outcome from the current situation is that one or more teams may choose to lodge a protest at the first race of the season - either once scrutineering has taken place on Thursday or after the finish of the race.

Mosley added: "One possibility is that all the teams agree that it is illegal, and therefore all the teams shouldn't have it from Barcelona. But then those teams who say it is legal will say 'Why should we do that?' And those that say it's illegal will say 'Why should we lose an advantage for four races?'

"And so probably what will happen is it will end up going to the stewards, who will make a decision. That will almost certainly be appealed by whichever side is disadvantaged. And then that will go to our Court of Appeal and be hammered out.

"It's not straightforward. I have an open mind on it at the moment - I can see it going either way. I really can. But somebody has to make their mind up and fortunately it's not my job."

---

Surely this could've been sorted weeks ago?

[Cara Van Man]

In other words, he doesn't know a 'diffuser' from an apple pie.

[Graham]

so basically what hes saying is..

we could just make a decision on it legality... but it would be far better to wait, and allow legal reps to make a fortune arguing the toss in paris.. afterall we are trying to cut costs..:tolleyes:

[RJB_666]

I reckon the team that have complained have probably got one similar running through manufacture at the moment. The teams have left it late so that the teams with the "rule bending" diffusers will have less time to rectify the problem. The FIA should have cleared this up fully weeks ago.

[AlpineWhite]

To me, it reads as:

"Well, I could've sorted it out earlier, but erm, I didn't. I suppose it's too late to do anything about it now. Oh, and it's the team's fault. Blame them, nothing to do with me...."

[flemke]

I've no doubt that Mosley is dragging his feet in the hope that this will become a big bone of contention amongst the teams and serve to undermine FOTA.
This is not a guy who cares about racing, He did not go to most of the races even back before he was told by heads of state not to come.

[new in today]

So we are faced with the possibility that the whole season and its results are compromised before it even kicks off with some teams possibly having an unfair advantage for the first four races making the championship once again a farce.

Going on past experience I would assume that Mosley is well aware the diffusers are illegal as Ferrari haven't used one. How fortuitous it would be if at Spain the points for Brawn , Toyota and Williams were all removed.

I bet he would have an instant answer if ferrari had been accused of running an illegal diffuser and that answer would have been of course that they were perfectly legal and hard lines for everyone else for not thinking of it.

Edited by new in today on Sunday 22 March 09:43

[Red Firecracker]

new in today said:

So we are faced with the possibility that the whole season and its results are compromised before it even kicks off with some teams possibly having an unfair advantage for the first four races making the championship once again a farce.

Look at it from the other angle though.

So we are faced with the possibility that the whole season and its results are compromised before it even kicks off with some teams possibly having a fair advantage for the first four races making the championship once again a farce once the more powerful teams who didn't cleverly interpret the rules to the n'th degree get the legal parts made illegal.

Or, the parts are deemed legal and the bigger teams who don't have them (publicly?) at the moment quickly develop the parts and race them.

No parts on those cars are specifically illegal from my understanding unless failed by the scrutineers at the race or deemed illegal by the FIA (Charlie Whiting?) in writing upon submission by the teams.

I believe it is called innovation. The alternative is GP2/F2.

Of course, I also have no doubt they'll be deemed illegal due to the teams who have them and the teams who don't. Shame, clever thinking just isn't rewarded anymore.

[new in today]

Red Firecracker said:

new in today said:

So we are faced with the possibility that the whole season and its results are compromised before it even kicks off with some teams possibly having an unfair advantage for the first four races making the championship once again a farce.

Look at it from the other angle though.

So we are faced with the possibility that the whole season and its results are compromised before it even kicks off with some teams possibly having a fair advantage for the first four races making the championship once again a farce once the more powerful teams who didn't cleverly interpret the rules to the n'th degree get the legal parts made illegal.

Or, the parts are deemed legal and the bigger teams who don't have them (publicly?) at the moment quickly develop the parts and race them.

No parts on those cars are specifically illegal from my understanding unless failed by the scrutineers at the race or deemed illegal by the FIA (Charlie Whiting?) in writing upon submission by the teams.

I believe it is called innovation. The alternative is GP2/F2.

Of course, I also have no doubt they'll be deemed illegal due to the teams who have them and the teams who don't. Shame, clever thinking just isn't rewarded anymore.

I hope you are right and that they are legal and the teams involved have in fact done the right thing. However as mentioned as Ferrari seemed to have been asleep my money is on them being deemed illegal. The fuss of course will be in relation to exactly how efficient/successful they are rather than their legality which should be an instant yes or no decision and it is farcical that this hasn't been the case.
Leaving the decision till Spain smacks of looking to see what effect they hace before deciding on their legality. the teams will know this and probably do a quick redesign rather than lose points in the future.
Its all very very farsical though but typical F1.

[flemke]

Does anyone wonder, as I do, why the FIA should need to wait for a protest by one team before it could rule on the legality of another team's diffuser? It should be part of scrutineering, with sufficiently clear guidance from the regulator beforehand that a team is in no doubt as to whether its design would be legal.

[Lord Croker]

flemke said:

Does anyone wonder, as I do, why the FIA should need to wait for a protest by one team before it could rule on the legality of another team's diffuser? It should be part of scrutineering, with sufficiently clear guidance from the regulator beforehand that a team is in no doubt as to whether its design would be legal.

Perhaps they'll do this so that the team's protest will give extra credibility to the FIA's ruling, two parties finding the diffuser to be illegal being better than one.

I think that there's not enough guidance in advance because the FIA make it up as they go along. The teams are cleverer than them so they have to think on their feet, which is obviosly not a strong point...

[german tony]

flemke said:

I've no doubt that Mosley is dragging his feet in the hope that this will become a big bone of contention amongst the teams and serve to undermine FOTA.

Yup.

As for advising the teams in adavance about the legality of their innovations, surely Williams & Toyota were given the ok - at least enough to allow Brawn to develop a similar solution.

Thus the teams still with some development cash left (ie not Renault) will have their own versions ready for use in Oz as long as the stewards don't throw a spanner in the works.

[german tony]

Oh & it occurs to me that the message Max is sending is that it is nothing to do with him. In which case perhaps he should just say "It's down the the people in Oz" & leave it at that.

[flemke]

german tony said:

Oh & it occurs to me that the message Max is sending is that it is nothing to do with him. In which case perhaps he should just say "It's down the the people in Oz" & leave it at that.

Except when he and his minions interfere from afar, as they did with the mass damper, with Indy '05 and with Hungary '07.

[Hut49]

For this to be resolved it requires someone to make a decision so that the issue can then be forced through the governing process that will inevitably end up in the FIA Court of Appeal for a final judgment. Based on MM's posturing I'm now anticipating that Brawn's cars at least will be rejected by the race steward at scrutineering.

That may be the kiss of death for Brawn's aspirations - I doubt their budget has (even with Honda's continuity pledge) a legal disbursements fund for taking on the establishment through a protracted legal process. That is why only Brawn's diffuser will be found illegal at scrutineering. The establishment can outlaw innovation by targeting the 'weakest' team to make their point. Maybe they could choose Williams but Brawn's pre-season testing success seems to have singled them out for special attention.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Martin Keene]

As far as I can tell, the teams break down into three cmaps on this, see if you can spot the theme...

Followed the rules to the letter group
Ferrari - Part of overtaking working group and developed the diffuser rules.
McLaren - Part of overtaking working group and developed the diffuser rules.
Reanult - Part of overtaking working group and developed the diffuser rules.

Bent the rules, but didn't break them group
Brawn GP - Combined diffuser/crash structure and damn fast.
Toyota - Combined diffuser/crash structure and fast.
Williams - Combined diffuser/crash structure and a nice improvement on last year.

Did something totally different group
Red Bull - Rear wing end plats extended down to reference plane.
Torro Rosso - Rear wing end plats extended down to reference plane.


No sure where Force India come into this, but I haven't heard them moaning.

[german tony]

Hold on, isn't Brawn the head of the aero commitee part of FOTA?

[flemke]

german tony said:

Hold on, isn't Brawn the head of the aero commitee part of FOTA?

Is there such a thing?
Might you be thinking of the "OWG" (Overtaking Working Group), one of whose three primary members is Rory Byrne?

[DangerousMike]

the diffusers are clearly not illegal, they exploit poorly worded rules, but still follow them to the letter. They are clever idea, and therefore shouldn't be banned. The teams that took part in the technical working group exercise didn't follow the rules to the letter - they followed what they'd intended their rules to say, and thus put themselves at a big disadvantage. They should have read the wording carefully and seen what they could get away with.

it's such a shame that whenever somebody outsmarts someone else in F1, the development gets banned.

Edited by DangerousMike on Sunday 22 March 17:04

[anonymous-user]

I expect the diffusers will be deemed legal, but the regs will then be changed for next year to make them illegal.