How much "Honda" (if any) is in the new car?
Discussion
From my understanding, Brawn GP is Honda re-badged, with a new engine dropped in.
As pleased as I am with their results, I do wish people would stop referring to them as a new team.
The BGP001 has been is R&D/ Production and Testing since 2007.
Yes this is a tale of the phoenix rising from the ashes; but far from being a new team.
Obviously, credit where credit is due - and Brawn, Button & Barrichello magnificently deserve theirs.
I'm also quite pleased to see some britishness return to F1.
McLaren, Brawn and hopefully Williams could soon be riding the waves of victory :-)
ETA: Noting Honda spent a fortune for this years car! Why they decided to drop out is beyond belief! False economy, surely. They paid for this car and have paid for this season.
As pleased as I am with their results, I do wish people would stop referring to them as a new team.
The BGP001 has been is R&D/ Production and Testing since 2007.
Yes this is a tale of the phoenix rising from the ashes; but far from being a new team.
Obviously, credit where credit is due - and Brawn, Button & Barrichello magnificently deserve theirs.
I'm also quite pleased to see some britishness return to F1.
McLaren, Brawn and hopefully Williams could soon be riding the waves of victory :-)
ETA: Noting Honda spent a fortune for this years car! Why they decided to drop out is beyond belief! False economy, surely. They paid for this car and have paid for this season.
Edited by mically on Monday 30th March 12:01
indi pearl said:
My understanding of F1 is far from full.As I understand it Honda sold the whole set up to Brawn.They have sourced and installed the new German engine. Where is the frame made?What,if anything is made by Honda?
Up until Honda bailed out, the car was technically and legally made by Honday but one can assume that the intelectual rights were sold or transferred to Brawn as part of the package.In simple terms, the car was designed and built by Honda. Is powered by Mercedes and is now owned, operated and run by Brawn GP.
F1 cars don't have "frames" but a monocoque (single structure tub mafe from carbon fibre in which the driver sits and to which is attached the engine, wheels and bodywork).
mically said:
Noting Honda spent a fortune for this years car! Why they decided to drop out is beyond belief! False economy, surely. They paid for this car and have paid for this season.
Two reasons: One is that Honda are (I am told) an honourable, decent company. They are facing huge losses globally and will be making a lot of people redundant which they do not like doing. It would be very bad form if they were seen to be sacking people because there's no money to pay them yet still pour millions into F1. So it's as much about image as it is financial.Secondly, it's wrong to think that they have paid for this season. They have contributed to it but running costs, travel, etc wont be part of that.
Don't forget that these types of companies plan on 5 year + cycles. I don't think they handled their withdrawal particularly well but that aside, is probably the only option they had.
indi pearl said:
My understanding of F1 is far from full.As I understand it Honda sold the whole set up to Brawn.They have sourced and installed the new German engine. Where is the frame made?What,if anything is made by Honda?
err... the engine is BRITISH just because Merc are a German company, does not make the engine German.
Scuffers said:
indi pearl said:
My understanding of F1 is far from full.As I understand it Honda sold the whole set up to Brawn.They have sourced and installed the new German engine. Where is the frame made?What,if anything is made by Honda?
err... the engine is BRITISH just because Merc are a German company, does not make the engine German.
As I understand it Honda F1 were running at around £100m/yr. This year they are providing about £35m because they are under a contractual obligation. There tenure in F1 has cost Honda the best part of £1bn.
Unfortunately for Honda they have effectively missed out on all the positive PR of last weekend, Richard Branson and Virgin have nailed pretty much all of it despite only comming in within the last 48hrs before the GP and rumour has it he paid just about £200k for the sponsorship rights to those 3 Virgin badges on the car. He still has first option on team principal sponsor.
Unfortunately for Honda they have effectively missed out on all the positive PR of last weekend, Richard Branson and Virgin have nailed pretty much all of it despite only comming in within the last 48hrs before the GP and rumour has it he paid just about £200k for the sponsorship rights to those 3 Virgin badges on the car. He still has first option on team principal sponsor.
Wanta996Gotta said:
Agree, some idiot posters/Media thinking its a 3month old car are living on a different planet. I think Brawn mentioned that they had been working on this car for 16months. Its like Mercedes buying BMW and sticking a 3pointed star on the front of a 5 series.
Well no it is more like Jaguar going from Ford to Tata.It is still the same people doing the same jobs. The same people made it, as work on it now.
Scuffers said:
entropy said:
There's more Germans working in Brixworth than 10 years. Ilmor sold out their F1 division to Merc a few years ago.
can you say that again? not sure I understand it?DJC said:
Richard Branson and Virgin have nailed pretty much all of it despite only comming in within the last 48hrs before the GP and rumour has it he paid just about £200k for the sponsorship rights to those 3 Virgin badges on the car. He still has first option on team principal sponsor.
If thats true, I'm struck by two immediate feelings, first - what a steal robbery of deal for Branson, and then second - Branson what a freeloader/self publicist w
e, to cough up just £200k. His TV ads would be lot more to make than that... Hardly a saviour like sum.Yes. I'm confused.
and okay third - how desperate must Brawn be for cash? £200k for the amount publicity Virgin got for it, and first option on title sponsor, they'd be a queue of some length, if not around the block in these economic times, to be associated with the 'fairytale/phoenix' with the positive aspect (except for the redundancies) around the team.
StevieBee said:
Up until Honda bailed out, the car was technically and legally made by Honday but one can assume that the intelectual rights were sold or transferred to Brawn as part of the package.
In simple terms, the car was designed and built by Honda. Is powered by Mercedes and is now owned, operated and run by Brawn GP.
Honda originally bought out the BAR F1 team, who they previously supplied with engines. Honda's input to the chassis design was largely financial, unless you consider a group of mostly British and European engineers working in Brackley, Northamptonshire as being a true part of Honda. The engine was the only part you could say was a genuine Honda product and not something Honda had simply bought. So the very same group of engineers in Brackley have now become Brawn F1, the Honda engine has been replaced by a Mercedes and they're winning races. Looks like Honda f*cked up there In simple terms, the car was designed and built by Honda. Is powered by Mercedes and is now owned, operated and run by Brawn GP.
entropy said:
Scuffers said:
entropy said:
There's more Germans working in Brixworth than 10 years. Ilmor sold out their F1 division to Merc a few years ago.
can you say that again? not sure I understand it?Northern Munkee said:
DJC said:
Richard Branson and Virgin have nailed pretty much all of it despite only comming in within the last 48hrs before the GP and rumour has it he paid just about £200k for the sponsorship rights to those 3 Virgin badges on the car. He still has first option on team principal sponsor.
If thats true, I'm struck by two immediate feelings, first - what a steal robbery of deal for Branson, and then second - Branson what a freeloader/self publicist we, to cough up just £200k. His TV ads would be lot more to make than that... Hardly a saviour like sum.Yes. I'm confused.
and okay third - how desperate must Brawn be for cash? £200k for the amount publicity Virgin got for it, and first option on title sponsor, they'd be a queue of some length, if not around the block in these economic times, to be associated with the 'fairytale/phoenix' with the positive aspect (except for the redundancies) around the team.
I can see Branson sticking around for a year on the back of this, but I would be surprised if he was to stay long term.
egomeister said:
Make no mistake, Branson has got a fantastic deal so far but what if I was Brawn I'd have taken the deal too to get some more money in the company bank account. It's not like they had anything else to stick on the car, and Virgin will be raising awareness of the team as well as the other way around.
I can see Branson sticking around for a year on the back of this, but I would be surprised if he was to stay long term.
Agreed, given the choice between taking $200k for three stickers or running the car bare, there's only one choice.I can see Branson sticking around for a year on the back of this, but I would be surprised if he was to stay long term.
Besides without Branson's interviews before and after the race, there would have been less coverage of them. Once the team principal and drivers have been interviewed, there was no more mileage to get for TV airtime.
Branson extended that and demonstrated the value of investing in the team to other potential sponsors.
mically said:
From my understanding, Brawn GP is Honda re-badged, with a new engine dropped in.
As pleased as I am with their results, I do wish people would stop referring to them as a new team.
The BGP001 has been is R&D/ Production and Testing since 2007.
Yes this is a tale of the phoenix rising from the ashes; but far from being a new team.
Obviously, credit where credit is due - and Brawn, Button & Barrichello magnificently deserve theirs.
I'm also quite pleased to see some britishness return to F1.
McLaren, Brawn and hopefully Williams could soon be riding the waves of victory :-)
ETA: Noting Honda spent a fortune for this years car! Why they decided to drop out is beyond belief! False economy, surely. They paid for this car and have paid for this season.
sorry but you need to do some research, Brawn came in November 2007 and told Honda that the car intended for 09 was a pile of cack and in no uncertain terms set about re-designing it. as i said on another thread, he told button that 08 was a write off at the start of the season but he had high hopes for 09... both trusted each other to deliver... perhaps not a new team, but this is anything but a re-badged Honda...As pleased as I am with their results, I do wish people would stop referring to them as a new team.
The BGP001 has been is R&D/ Production and Testing since 2007.
Yes this is a tale of the phoenix rising from the ashes; but far from being a new team.
Obviously, credit where credit is due - and Brawn, Button & Barrichello magnificently deserve theirs.
I'm also quite pleased to see some britishness return to F1.
McLaren, Brawn and hopefully Williams could soon be riding the waves of victory :-)
ETA: Noting Honda spent a fortune for this years car! Why they decided to drop out is beyond belief! False economy, surely. They paid for this car and have paid for this season.
Edited by mically on Monday 30th March 12:01
the brawn is a new car designed and built with little if any Honda parts carried over and designed totally for the new 09 rules. Also, just like you can not drop a renault engine straight into your focus, you can not drop a mercedes f1 engine straight into a honda f1 car and conform to the 09 rules... hence why the wililams and the toyota have the same engines and not customer spec...
people will believe what they want and belittle the efforts of Brawm but they have spent 12 months designing this car and are reaping the rewards, whilst ferrari and mclaren went all out for the title last year, Brawn was adamant that the Honda in 09 would succeed. That Honda, amisdt global financial woe backed out belieivng that they could not justify the expenditure whilst asking staff to take four day week/redundancy pacakges. Whilst this was sad for the team, Brawn and the team were, by this point, satisfied that the car was fast enough to warrant the management buy out.
but i am sure you will ignore this like you must have been ignoring all the relevant motorsport press over the last 16 months and believe what you want to believe. sure its a 2008 Honda rebadeged as a Brawn but its been designed from the ground up by Brawn...
and as a final point, we are all aware just how difficult it is for a "new" team to enter F1, look at Prodrive and the problems thy had, there hasnt been a new "new" team in f1 for years...
pablo said:
That Honda, amisdt global financial woe backed out belieivng that they could not justify the expenditure whilst asking staff to take four day week/redundancy pacakges.
As I've said elsewhere Honda arguably backed out of F1 to save face because they didn't have an engine capable of delivering the performance (not just bhp - power delivery and driveability was the issue) that Brawn demanded - there was no other way forward. A Ferrari or MB engined-Honda wasn't going to happen. Global financial woe was a convenient smoke screen.Hut49 said:
pablo said:
That Honda, amisdt global financial woe backed out belieivng that they could not justify the expenditure whilst asking staff to take four day week/redundancy pacakges.
As I've said elsewhere Honda arguably backed out of F1 to save face because they didn't have an engine capable of delivering the performance (not just bhp - power delivery and driveability was the issue) that Brawn demanded - there was no other way forward. A Ferrari or MB engined-Honda wasn't going to happen. Global financial woe was a convenient smoke screen.Both Renault and Honda got permission to develop their engines to bring them up to the Ferarri/Merc level, Renault did this, and I am not sure if Honda did or not (I believe they did but have nothing to base this on).
The only bit that’s un-clear is at what point Ross went to Mercedes for the engine deal, because, as has been said, you can’t just swap one engine for another so some design work in the car must have been done ahead of the ‘deal’ being signed….
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