Could a new series replace F1?
Discussion
Just a thought, with Max lobbying to be reappointed as FIA president, Bernie saying his medals system will come in next year, talk of spending caps etc and the seemingly more and more bizarre actions of the FIA irritating both teams and circuits, is there any possibility that the manufacturers might talk again of starting their own series, goverened by themselves?
I know a manufaturer's break away was discussed a few years ago with nothing coming of it, and i very much doubt it would be openly talked about if it were being discussed, but do those 'in the know' or closer to the sport than the rest of us think this might ever happen?
I know a manufaturer's break away was discussed a few years ago with nothing coming of it, and i very much doubt it would be openly talked about if it were being discussed, but do those 'in the know' or closer to the sport than the rest of us think this might ever happen?
I think it would be great to have a formula based on a max budget of say £50 or 100 million, set dimensions, tyres and engine spec but other than that they can do whatever they like, let the engineers do their thing 
The budget however is to run the whole team for the whole season but they choose what the spend it on
The budget however is to run the whole team for the whole season but they choose what the spend it on
Whilst there was a lot of talk about a breakaway series a few yers ago I think it was sabre rattling rather than a considered alternative to an F1 run GP series. However, things have moved on since then and the situation is remarkably different.
What is going on at the moment is a war between Mosley and FOTA. Mossy sees any organisation of the teams as a threat to his total dominance so is attacking it in a crude way. The manufacturers have the money and the sponsorship so it is they were are under attack, hence the talk of a cheap and cheerful F1 in 2010, a sort of Essex based season.
At the moment McLaren are under threat. If they are banned, even for say half a season, then they will probably move on. They are now making cars and Merc might well wish to economise by becoming just an engine supplier. They've got into bed with Brawn GP and that might well be enough for them.
If they leave then BMW might well just supply as well. Renault are struggling and are probably looking for a way out themselves. Ferrari? I've not been able to fathom the team ever so they might find it useful to stay but if Toyota are there then they might well find it inconvenient to play second fiddle to them.
With races moving away to spitting distance of Christmas Island the manufacturers might well feel that money thrown at F1 is money wasted. Their main markets, especially with the amount that Obama is putting into the economy, lies in Europe and North America where races are few and far between. They might well then look to a series which runs races on circuits where there are more spectators than marshals.
If they put their money into, for instance, World Touring Cars, with races on the great European circuits and the occasional foray to North America - Montreal and Indy would, I assume, welcome them - then they would encourage TV coverage. The glamour, the sponsors and the money would go there and the series would become the de facto Grand Prix series. Would you watch F1 if it was just a feeder series for WTC?
Mossy seems to be converting F1 to an Essex man dream. By reducing its engineering requirement by buying in bits and pieces - virtually a kit car series - then the aficionados will probably move on. F1 has always been as much about the manufacturers as the drivers. Most people have heard of Lotus but beyond Clark how many people can name other drivers? Brabham – how many people can name any drivers? And most of those who watch F1 on TV can’t think back beyond Schumacher for drivers.
Move that engineering to another branch of the sport and it will become, in time, the new GP series. After all, grand prix means big prize and if that awarded to the driver of the E-Class winner of the WTC WDC gets a lot more than the F1 winner then the title GP moves on.
So I don’t see a concerted up-sticks move. However, I can see the money going elsewhere.
F1 depends on its image and if it is all rather squalid then what is the point of the big teams and rich sponsors being associated with it?
Manufacturers need advertising. When you consider the number of times Mercedes were mentioned and had their logo on-screen over the last two races, you have to say that there is value in supporting a televised race series. So if they are excluded, by whatever means, from F1 they will, in all probability, look for some other method to dominate the screens. It’s got to be motor racing.
But don’t forget that Mossy might well be off soon. For all his posturing and posing, I can’t see those with power and influence wanting him to continue excluding the money from the sport. Balestra was kicked out when he was a liability and the same might well go for Mossy. Balestra was convinced he was going to win, his advisor told him so (who was that advisor? The name’s on the tip of my tongue) and it wasn’t until the actual figures were published that he found he’d been toppled. (Coupéd sounds good word for someone in motor sport being kicked out of the top position.)
Whatever happens it seems likely that F1 will be weaker at the end of this season than at the beginning. You and I might well feel that damage limitation exercise is required but this seems beyond those in the sport.
I’m worried. At a time when everyone in F1 should be pulling together we seem to be full of factions. Mossy criticises Eccs (but then don’t we all), FOTA having a go at Mossy (see previous parenthesis), Mossy attacking the manufacturers and all this at a time of financial terror.
One of the most exciting season clinchers ever and one and a half exciting races already in 2009 and yet I can’t help thinking we are all doomed.
I like open-wheelers but my preferences have little influence. In GP does move over to WTC or even WSC then I have to say I’ll follow.
What is going on at the moment is a war between Mosley and FOTA. Mossy sees any organisation of the teams as a threat to his total dominance so is attacking it in a crude way. The manufacturers have the money and the sponsorship so it is they were are under attack, hence the talk of a cheap and cheerful F1 in 2010, a sort of Essex based season.
At the moment McLaren are under threat. If they are banned, even for say half a season, then they will probably move on. They are now making cars and Merc might well wish to economise by becoming just an engine supplier. They've got into bed with Brawn GP and that might well be enough for them.
If they leave then BMW might well just supply as well. Renault are struggling and are probably looking for a way out themselves. Ferrari? I've not been able to fathom the team ever so they might find it useful to stay but if Toyota are there then they might well find it inconvenient to play second fiddle to them.
With races moving away to spitting distance of Christmas Island the manufacturers might well feel that money thrown at F1 is money wasted. Their main markets, especially with the amount that Obama is putting into the economy, lies in Europe and North America where races are few and far between. They might well then look to a series which runs races on circuits where there are more spectators than marshals.
If they put their money into, for instance, World Touring Cars, with races on the great European circuits and the occasional foray to North America - Montreal and Indy would, I assume, welcome them - then they would encourage TV coverage. The glamour, the sponsors and the money would go there and the series would become the de facto Grand Prix series. Would you watch F1 if it was just a feeder series for WTC?
Mossy seems to be converting F1 to an Essex man dream. By reducing its engineering requirement by buying in bits and pieces - virtually a kit car series - then the aficionados will probably move on. F1 has always been as much about the manufacturers as the drivers. Most people have heard of Lotus but beyond Clark how many people can name other drivers? Brabham – how many people can name any drivers? And most of those who watch F1 on TV can’t think back beyond Schumacher for drivers.
Move that engineering to another branch of the sport and it will become, in time, the new GP series. After all, grand prix means big prize and if that awarded to the driver of the E-Class winner of the WTC WDC gets a lot more than the F1 winner then the title GP moves on.
So I don’t see a concerted up-sticks move. However, I can see the money going elsewhere.
F1 depends on its image and if it is all rather squalid then what is the point of the big teams and rich sponsors being associated with it?
Manufacturers need advertising. When you consider the number of times Mercedes were mentioned and had their logo on-screen over the last two races, you have to say that there is value in supporting a televised race series. So if they are excluded, by whatever means, from F1 they will, in all probability, look for some other method to dominate the screens. It’s got to be motor racing.
But don’t forget that Mossy might well be off soon. For all his posturing and posing, I can’t see those with power and influence wanting him to continue excluding the money from the sport. Balestra was kicked out when he was a liability and the same might well go for Mossy. Balestra was convinced he was going to win, his advisor told him so (who was that advisor? The name’s on the tip of my tongue) and it wasn’t until the actual figures were published that he found he’d been toppled. (Coupéd sounds good word for someone in motor sport being kicked out of the top position.)
Whatever happens it seems likely that F1 will be weaker at the end of this season than at the beginning. You and I might well feel that damage limitation exercise is required but this seems beyond those in the sport.
I’m worried. At a time when everyone in F1 should be pulling together we seem to be full of factions. Mossy criticises Eccs (but then don’t we all), FOTA having a go at Mossy (see previous parenthesis), Mossy attacking the manufacturers and all this at a time of financial terror.
One of the most exciting season clinchers ever and one and a half exciting races already in 2009 and yet I can’t help thinking we are all doomed.
I like open-wheelers but my preferences have little influence. In GP does move over to WTC or even WSC then I have to say I’ll follow.
nekrum said:
I think it would be great to have a formula based on a max budget of say £50 or 100 million, set dimensions, tyres and engine spec but other than that they can do whatever they like, let the engineers do their thing
The budget however is to run the whole team for the whole season but they choose what the spend it on
Genius ideaThe budget however is to run the whole team for the whole season but they choose what the spend it on
I think I will copyright it, I will call it A1 GP.
I don't think a new series could replace F1.
However i do think that a budget cut in F1 would enable some of the F1's current manufacturers to spread there wings and make a serious on-going commitment to other series.
Taking one discipline alone i still think Audi get more "clout" per £ out of sportscars than any team in F1 whether it's budget, marketing or technical "freedom" related.
Looking in the recent past (say post 1990) of the current F1 manufacturers Toyota, BMW (engineered by Williams), Maclaren and Mercedes have all entered sportscars at some point with decent levels of success but from memory none to the same level of continual involvement as Audi.
What do we have now? Audi, Peugeot, Lola Aston Martin and customer supplied Ferraris and Porsches as the recognised names.
Again from memory i think the majority of the above listed pulled out of sportscars due to the sheer expense of F1 so a reduction in F1 budget might not lead to wholesale job losses it may just lead to previous ways where a manufacturer could afford and actually justify to the board an involvement in F1, sportscars, touring cars, rallying etc etc as both a manufacturer team and customer car supplier. Would be even better if we then start seeing some of the F1 drivers moving round a bit into other disciplines but i think that is probably one wish to many.......
However i do think that a budget cut in F1 would enable some of the F1's current manufacturers to spread there wings and make a serious on-going commitment to other series.
Taking one discipline alone i still think Audi get more "clout" per £ out of sportscars than any team in F1 whether it's budget, marketing or technical "freedom" related.
Looking in the recent past (say post 1990) of the current F1 manufacturers Toyota, BMW (engineered by Williams), Maclaren and Mercedes have all entered sportscars at some point with decent levels of success but from memory none to the same level of continual involvement as Audi.
What do we have now? Audi, Peugeot, Lola Aston Martin and customer supplied Ferraris and Porsches as the recognised names.
Again from memory i think the majority of the above listed pulled out of sportscars due to the sheer expense of F1 so a reduction in F1 budget might not lead to wholesale job losses it may just lead to previous ways where a manufacturer could afford and actually justify to the board an involvement in F1, sportscars, touring cars, rallying etc etc as both a manufacturer team and customer car supplier. Would be even better if we then start seeing some of the F1 drivers moving round a bit into other disciplines but i think that is probably one wish to many.......
elster said:
nekrum said:
I think it would be great to have a formula based on a max budget of say £50 or 100 million, set dimensions, tyres and engine spec but other than that they can do whatever they like, let the engineers do their thing
The budget however is to run the whole team for the whole season but they choose what the spend it on
Genius ideaThe budget however is to run the whole team for the whole season but they choose what the spend it on
I think I will copyright it, I will call it A1 GP.
Edited by nekrum on Wednesday 8th April 11:56
I like big sportscar racing but for some reason it does not seem to capture the public's imagination. I've been to a number of LMES races where it was free to get in. How can that work?
It's strange that it hasn't been very marketable. I know that for some years Le Mans lacked a bit of excitement, the only bit up for discussion was which Porsche would win the race, but that ended years ago and you'd think with the money invested they'd put some of it towards marketing the various series. I was at Donington one year and saw the most exciting 90 minutes of racing that I've ever seen. Mind you, it was a six-hour race. The TWR Jags and Mercs were punching it out on circuit, swopping fastest laps and paintwork. No one could help but be entranced. But there was hardly anyone there. And that was (I seem to remember) 1989, the time of big Jag support, or so I thought.
With that sort of public response no one is going th throw money at it, at least I wouldn't. Saloon cars have had a big following at times but even that waxes and wanes with the investment of the manufacturers. The only constant has been F1.
But I think that the need of the sponsors is the main driving force for any forumla nowadays. If they can get airtime and proper technical support, then the public will follow it.
Perhaps WSC. I certainly hope so but am not overly confident.
It's strange that it hasn't been very marketable. I know that for some years Le Mans lacked a bit of excitement, the only bit up for discussion was which Porsche would win the race, but that ended years ago and you'd think with the money invested they'd put some of it towards marketing the various series. I was at Donington one year and saw the most exciting 90 minutes of racing that I've ever seen. Mind you, it was a six-hour race. The TWR Jags and Mercs were punching it out on circuit, swopping fastest laps and paintwork. No one could help but be entranced. But there was hardly anyone there. And that was (I seem to remember) 1989, the time of big Jag support, or so I thought.
With that sort of public response no one is going th throw money at it, at least I wouldn't. Saloon cars have had a big following at times but even that waxes and wanes with the investment of the manufacturers. The only constant has been F1.
But I think that the need of the sponsors is the main driving force for any forumla nowadays. If they can get airtime and proper technical support, then the public will follow it.
Perhaps WSC. I certainly hope so but am not overly confident.
Derek Smith said:
At the moment McLaren are under threat. If they are banned, even for say half a season, then they will probably move on. They are now making cars and Merc might well wish to economise by becoming just an engine supplier. They've got into bed with Brawn GP and that might well be enough for them.
Since the spygate situation last year I've been wondering whether McL might move on to sportscars. It wouldn't get them away from the FIA but it would surely make it easier for them to concentrate on the racing, and Merc could probably relate the technonolgy more closely to their products. Also sportscar racing is quite big in N America, which has become a no-go zone for F1 while being hugely important to the manufacturers.
Derek Smith said:
I like big sportscar racing but for some reason it does not seem to capture the public's imagination. I've been to a number of LMES races where it was free to get in. How can that work?
It's strange that it hasn't been very marketable. I know that for some years Le Mans lacked a bit of excitement, the only bit up for discussion was which Porsche would win the race, but that ended years ago and you'd think with the money invested they'd put some of it towards marketing the various series. I was at Donington one year and saw the most exciting 90 minutes of racing that I've ever seen. Mind you, it was a six-hour race. The TWR Jags and Mercs were punching it out on circuit, swopping fastest laps and paintwork. No one could help but be entranced. But there was hardly anyone there. And that was (I seem to remember) 1989, the time of big Jag support, or so I thought.
With that sort of public response no one is going th throw money at it, at least I wouldn't. Saloon cars have had a big following at times but even that waxes and wanes with the investment of the manufacturers. The only constant has been F1.
But I think that the need of the sponsors is the main driving force for any forumla nowadays. If they can get airtime and proper technical support, then the public will follow it.
Perhaps WSC. I certainly hope so but am not overly confident.
I was one of the few that was there with you at Donington in 89 and can only agree with what you say about the race.It's strange that it hasn't been very marketable. I know that for some years Le Mans lacked a bit of excitement, the only bit up for discussion was which Porsche would win the race, but that ended years ago and you'd think with the money invested they'd put some of it towards marketing the various series. I was at Donington one year and saw the most exciting 90 minutes of racing that I've ever seen. Mind you, it was a six-hour race. The TWR Jags and Mercs were punching it out on circuit, swopping fastest laps and paintwork. No one could help but be entranced. But there was hardly anyone there. And that was (I seem to remember) 1989, the time of big Jag support, or so I thought.
With that sort of public response no one is going th throw money at it, at least I wouldn't. Saloon cars have had a big following at times but even that waxes and wanes with the investment of the manufacturers. The only constant has been F1.
But I think that the need of the sponsors is the main driving force for any forumla nowadays. If they can get airtime and proper technical support, then the public will follow it.
Perhaps WSC. I certainly hope so but am not overly confident.
I know it sounds like harking back to the 60's / 70's but to me the problem isn't to do with what's being raced it's who is racing them.
If you want a crowd (whether at the circuit or on the TV) get some star names in the cars (last example being Mansell smashing up Mondeo's at Donington).
I didn't go in 93 as i've never been a massive fan of touring cars but my mate said that post Mansell / bridge interface issues the spectator banks went from being rammed to empty in the space of five minutes, such was the draw of the brummy one.
Doesn't matter whether it's sportscars, rallying, touring cars or whatever. Get the stars in and the crowds will watch.
It's alright us enthusiasts waxing lyrical about Tom Kristiensen or whatever but unless its suddenly announced that Lewis will be driving in the FIA GT race at Silverstone in May the only ones watching will be the enthusiasts or those who got free tickets from Peugeot.
Unfortunately i cannot see the situation ever changing.
With Max & Bernie in charge, no chance.
Apart from endurance racing nothing but F1can race on F1 calender circuits - now FIA regs.
LMS is not a marketable race series because every race is 1000k whereas ALMS works with IMSA and the Americans know how to put on a show as it has a mixture of classic enduros and TV friendly Grand Prix distance races which get shown on the big networks like NBC.
I think the closest we got was with Champcars in the late 90s and early 00s. I paid more interest in that than F1 at the time but AOWR was torn apart by Tony George and the nail in the coffin was that Ganassi, Penske, AGR defected to a Mickey Mouse series lured only by the crown jewel in the Month of May that is the Indy 500.
Apart from endurance racing nothing but F1can race on F1 calender circuits - now FIA regs.
Derek Smith said:
Perhaps WSC. I certainly hope so but am not overly confident.
You forgot that Max & Bernie destroyed WSC by homologated engines with F1. Bernie saw WSC as a threat to F1 and found an easier way to tempt manufacturers into F1.LMS is not a marketable race series because every race is 1000k whereas ALMS works with IMSA and the Americans know how to put on a show as it has a mixture of classic enduros and TV friendly Grand Prix distance races which get shown on the big networks like NBC.
I think the closest we got was with Champcars in the late 90s and early 00s. I paid more interest in that than F1 at the time but AOWR was torn apart by Tony George and the nail in the coffin was that Ganassi, Penske, AGR defected to a Mickey Mouse series lured only by the crown jewel in the Month of May that is the Indy 500.
onemorelap said:
Doesn't matter whether it's sportscars, rallying, touring cars or whatever. Get the stars in and the crowds will watch.
It's alright us enthusiasts waxing lyrical about Tom Kristiensen or whatever but unless its suddenly announced that Lewis will be driving in the FIA GT race at Silverstone in May the only ones watching will be the enthusiasts or those who got free tickets from Peugeot.
Exactly, a point emphasised by the record attendance at last year's DTM race at Brands. Hamilton was there putting on some demo laps and despite the weather, there was a packed crowd. I'd estimate at least half the people there had come to see Lewis, especially compared to how I perceived the attendance the previous year.It's alright us enthusiasts waxing lyrical about Tom Kristiensen or whatever but unless its suddenly announced that Lewis will be driving in the FIA GT race at Silverstone in May the only ones watching will be the enthusiasts or those who got free tickets from Peugeot.
In fact, I also think that a high proportion of people there hadn't even heard of the DTM or had been to a race track before. Not necessarily a bad thing, but goes to show the draw of a big name.
F1 is just easier to market. You could stop anyone in the street and ask them to name two F1 drivers, try doing the same with Le Mans winners - even though there's cross-over!
At on point the FIA started talking about cross-over engines and the like. The idea was that they would be creating a new class at Le Mans for N/A 1200cc straight fours. Then what was LMP2 would change to 2.4 V8 engines. The idea being that the (?) LMP3 cars would effectively have half a V8. This was when the F1 cars started to have 2.4 V8s and they were starting to dictate that the engines last so many races. The eventual idea was along the lines of, if an F1 engine can complete 6 race weekends, that would be equivalent to a full Le Mans weekend. The idea was to make more engines available for Le Mans (and to try and attract Audi into F1)
It never happened because of the diesel revolution at Le Mans and the idea got quietly shelved by the FIA. At the time Race Car Engineering magazine did a feature on how it could pan out. IIRC a few manufacturers that were interviewed thought that the idea was a goer, Ferrari in particular stated their interest.
ETA sorry wrong thread. Ignore me.
It never happened because of the diesel revolution at Le Mans and the idea got quietly shelved by the FIA. At the time Race Car Engineering magazine did a feature on how it could pan out. IIRC a few manufacturers that were interviewed thought that the idea was a goer, Ferrari in particular stated their interest.
ETA sorry wrong thread. Ignore me.
Edited by stifler on Wednesday 8th April 19:39
onemorelap said:
I was one of the few that was there with you at Donington in 89 and can only agree with what you say about the race.
D'you realise, we probably saw one-another. I was at Coppice for the early laps and got hit by a chunk of tyre about an inch round that came through the chicken wire. It caught me right of the bridge of the nose and made my eyes water. I didn't think it that funny but it seems I was in a minority of those at Coppice.nekrum said:
elster said:
nekrum said:
I think it would be great to have a formula based on a max budget of say £50 or 100 million, set dimensions, tyres and engine spec but other than that they can do whatever they like, let the engineers do their thing
The budget however is to run the whole team for the whole season but they choose what the spend it on
Genius ideaThe budget however is to run the whole team for the whole season but they choose what the spend it on
I think I will copyright it, I will call it A1 GP.
Edited by nekrum on Wednesday 8th April 11:56
They may not of allowed modifications, but you get the idea of identical cars racing. It gets a bit dull.
Derek Smith said:
onemorelap said:
I was one of the few that was there with you at Donington in 89 and can only agree with what you say about the race.
D'you realise, we probably saw one-another. I was at Coppice for the early laps and got hit by a chunk of tyre about an inch round that came through the chicken wire. It caught me right of the bridge of the nose and made my eyes water. I didn't think it that funny but it seems I was in a minority of those at Coppice.So you were the Crying Conk Cobbler of Coppice then. Wondered who that was
entropy said:
With Max & Bernie in charge, no chance.
Apart from endurance racing nothing but F1can race on F1 calender circuits - now FIA regs.
My understanding is that blocking a rival series from using any circuit would be against EU regulations. It would be the same if the FiA tried to stop all non-FiA races if any rival series opted out of their control. Apart from endurance racing nothing but F1can race on F1 calender circuits - now FIA regs.
Further, given how little the circuits get for the honour of staging a GP, it's not that great a loss. Silverstone were stung when Eccs moved the date to April and the weather suddenly, for no apparent reason and completely without any warning, became sort of April like.
The investment required by the circuits to stage a GP is phenominal, as Donington is finding out to its cost. In the present financial situation Ecc's room for negotiation is limited and he's on the back foot. He's just had discussion with Canada about taging a GP and it's unlikely to be on terms of his dictation.
There must be some sort of threat to Mossy as he tagged on to one of his many, oh so many, press releases that he would be willing to run any breakaway series under FiA regs. I must admit to not understanding what the implication of this are but the acknowledgement has got be be legally based. Perhaps in answer to a direct question from FOTA.
Bernie, by removing Grands Prix from European and North American circuits, has left a big gap. If Donington can't generate the money and Silverstone is dumped then what will the 100,000 enthusiasts do? I haven't been able to go since 2003 but my situation has changed recently and I would have gone this year had not my daughter decided to get married - some people are so selfish. I still reckon I could have got back in time for the speeches. But a group the F1 nerds I knock around with are talking about Le Mans and the LMES for next year. And I've got to say when you work out the costs, a day or two at Silverstone, five at Le Mans, then perhaps another two European circuits won't break the bank. We could even take our wives. And this is five F1 fanatics talking about moving onto the nearest thing to WSC. That's not right.
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