Discussion
We all know he is a prodigous natural talent.
In his first yeat of karting, 1991, he won all 34 races in the Kadet class (who can equal that?). Then went on to be riculously good in Formula Ford and Formula three.
When he came into F1 he made some bad choices so did not win till his 113rd GP, starting from 14th on the grid at Hungary in 2006. He went on to be the highest point scoring driver over the last six races that season.
But to me it was 2007 that made Button as an F1 driver. His car was visibly bad, a complete and total dog. Yet he battled away in a fiercely competetive midfield all season, making up eight places from the grid at both the British and the Turkish GPs in two epic drives. He proved that he could outperform the car and that he was a real racer at this level, as well as having the exceptional speed that we already knew. People who only watch the podium finishers missed out on this.
In 2008 he gave up on the car. I think the reason he did this was because Ross Brawn had given up with the car, so it was going nowhere. People criticised him for not outperforming Rubens when they knew that he could but it was, effectively, a lost season.
So Jensen has made a lot of really bad career choices. He is one of the very best drivers in F1 and is a lot more rounded in his skills than most. He is supremely smooth and accurate (almost to millimetres every lap) which works better for him as rule changes mean mechanical grip goes up and aerodynamic grip goes down. He is easy on the cars with great mechanical sympathy, can read a race tactically and so win at the slowest possible pace, a great talent. And is brilliant in the wet, is a great overtaker and can maintain his pace and concentration for the whole race. Overall I would only rate Alonso of the current generation as being so complete.
Now, more by luck than judgement, he has at long last got the car that he deserves. Let's hope Brawn have the resources to remain competetive throughout the season. If Mercedes Benz have any sense they will ensure that he has. Brawn is now their best chance for another WDC for their engines.
In his first yeat of karting, 1991, he won all 34 races in the Kadet class (who can equal that?). Then went on to be riculously good in Formula Ford and Formula three.
When he came into F1 he made some bad choices so did not win till his 113rd GP, starting from 14th on the grid at Hungary in 2006. He went on to be the highest point scoring driver over the last six races that season.
But to me it was 2007 that made Button as an F1 driver. His car was visibly bad, a complete and total dog. Yet he battled away in a fiercely competetive midfield all season, making up eight places from the grid at both the British and the Turkish GPs in two epic drives. He proved that he could outperform the car and that he was a real racer at this level, as well as having the exceptional speed that we already knew. People who only watch the podium finishers missed out on this.
In 2008 he gave up on the car. I think the reason he did this was because Ross Brawn had given up with the car, so it was going nowhere. People criticised him for not outperforming Rubens when they knew that he could but it was, effectively, a lost season.
So Jensen has made a lot of really bad career choices. He is one of the very best drivers in F1 and is a lot more rounded in his skills than most. He is supremely smooth and accurate (almost to millimetres every lap) which works better for him as rule changes mean mechanical grip goes up and aerodynamic grip goes down. He is easy on the cars with great mechanical sympathy, can read a race tactically and so win at the slowest possible pace, a great talent. And is brilliant in the wet, is a great overtaker and can maintain his pace and concentration for the whole race. Overall I would only rate Alonso of the current generation as being so complete.
Now, more by luck than judgement, he has at long last got the car that he deserves. Let's hope Brawn have the resources to remain competetive throughout the season. If Mercedes Benz have any sense they will ensure that he has. Brawn is now their best chance for another WDC for their engines.
Largely in agreement with your summary. Not to forget, IIRC, his parting with Williams to make way for J-P Montoya was obviously not his choice or decision and J-P M's financial pulling power at that time was probably the main reason for the way things shaped up for Jenson Button then.
He's physically a big larger than most F1 drivers, towering over some and such extra bulk could be a weight and 'in car' ergonomics disadvantage. Despite this, I have always rated him as a top class F1 driver and I would bet a nice few quid that Frank Williams would have liked to have kept him rather than have him make way for J-P M but, money talks and indeed, SHOUTS in F1 and then some which explains the suspect driver movements over the years. Other moves appeared to be self-inflicted negative outcomes.
With the statements that Honda were concentrating on the 2009 car last season in mind, that news was pleasing to me for several reasons. When later the statement that because of world financial considerations in mind, Honda were withdrawing from F1 competition I was not much surprised but, I was hugely disappointed. When Brawn GP showed up to take over the team I was delighted. I expected some improvement, indeed, considerable improvement by the team this season but I was not expecting such an improvement. Lets hope the spoilsports do not interfere with the current status quo.
However, with Ferrari at paultry odds to win the 2009 F1 constructors with several on-line Bookies, I wonder if they have a mole in the FIA decision making machine.
...
He's physically a big larger than most F1 drivers, towering over some and such extra bulk could be a weight and 'in car' ergonomics disadvantage. Despite this, I have always rated him as a top class F1 driver and I would bet a nice few quid that Frank Williams would have liked to have kept him rather than have him make way for J-P M but, money talks and indeed, SHOUTS in F1 and then some which explains the suspect driver movements over the years. Other moves appeared to be self-inflicted negative outcomes.
With the statements that Honda were concentrating on the 2009 car last season in mind, that news was pleasing to me for several reasons. When later the statement that because of world financial considerations in mind, Honda were withdrawing from F1 competition I was not much surprised but, I was hugely disappointed. When Brawn GP showed up to take over the team I was delighted. I expected some improvement, indeed, considerable improvement by the team this season but I was not expecting such an improvement. Lets hope the spoilsports do not interfere with the current status quo.
However, with Ferrari at paultry odds to win the 2009 F1 constructors with several on-line Bookies, I wonder if they have a mole in the FIA decision making machine.
...
Duke of Rothesay said:
We all know he is a prodigous natural talent.
In his first yeat of karting, 1991, he won all 34 races in the Kadet class (who can equal that?). Then went on to be riculously good in Formula Ford and Formula three.
When he came into F1 he made some bad choices so did not win till his 113rd GP, starting from 14th on the grid at Hungary in 2006. He went on to be the highest point scoring driver over the last six races that season.
But to me it was 2007 that made Button as an F1 driver. His car was visibly bad, a complete and total dog. Yet he battled away in a fiercely competetive midfield all season, making up eight places from the grid at both the British and the Turkish GPs in two epic drives. He proved that he could outperform the car and that he was a real racer at this level, as well as having the exceptional speed that we already knew. People who only watch the podium finishers missed out on this.
In 2008 he gave up on the car. I think the reason he did this was because Ross Brawn had given up with the car, so it was going nowhere. People criticised him for not outperforming Rubens when they knew that he could but it was, effectively, a lost season.
So Jensen has made a lot of really bad career choices. He is one of the very best drivers in F1 and is a lot more rounded in his skills than most. He is supremely smooth and accurate (almost to millimetres every lap) which works better for him as rule changes mean mechanical grip goes up and aerodynamic grip goes down. He is easy on the cars with great mechanical sympathy, can read a race tactically and so win at the slowest possible pace, a great talent. And is brilliant in the wet, is a great overtaker and can maintain his pace and concentration for the whole race. Overall I would only rate Alonso of the current generation as being so complete.
Now, more by luck than judgement, he has at long last got the car that he deserves. Let's hope Brawn have the resources to remain competetive throughout the season. If Mercedes Benz have any sense they will ensure that he has. Brawn is now their best chance for another WDC for their engines.
I'm curious as to where you got this information?In his first yeat of karting, 1991, he won all 34 races in the Kadet class (who can equal that?). Then went on to be riculously good in Formula Ford and Formula three.
When he came into F1 he made some bad choices so did not win till his 113rd GP, starting from 14th on the grid at Hungary in 2006. He went on to be the highest point scoring driver over the last six races that season.
But to me it was 2007 that made Button as an F1 driver. His car was visibly bad, a complete and total dog. Yet he battled away in a fiercely competetive midfield all season, making up eight places from the grid at both the British and the Turkish GPs in two epic drives. He proved that he could outperform the car and that he was a real racer at this level, as well as having the exceptional speed that we already knew. People who only watch the podium finishers missed out on this.
In 2008 he gave up on the car. I think the reason he did this was because Ross Brawn had given up with the car, so it was going nowhere. People criticised him for not outperforming Rubens when they knew that he could but it was, effectively, a lost season.
So Jensen has made a lot of really bad career choices. He is one of the very best drivers in F1 and is a lot more rounded in his skills than most. He is supremely smooth and accurate (almost to millimetres every lap) which works better for him as rule changes mean mechanical grip goes up and aerodynamic grip goes down. He is easy on the cars with great mechanical sympathy, can read a race tactically and so win at the slowest possible pace, a great talent. And is brilliant in the wet, is a great overtaker and can maintain his pace and concentration for the whole race. Overall I would only rate Alonso of the current generation as being so complete.
Now, more by luck than judgement, he has at long last got the car that he deserves. Let's hope Brawn have the resources to remain competetive throughout the season. If Mercedes Benz have any sense they will ensure that he has. Brawn is now their best chance for another WDC for their engines.
Ian Davidson said:
Duke of Rothesay said:
We all know he is a prodigous natural talent.
In his first yeat of karting, 1991, he won all 34 races in the Kadet class (who can equal that?). Then went on to be riculously good in Formula Ford and Formula three.
When he came into F1 he made some bad choices so did not win till his 113rd GP, starting from 14th on the grid at Hungary in 2006. He went on to be the highest point scoring driver over the last six races that season.
But to me it was 2007 that made Button as an F1 driver. His car was visibly bad, a complete and total dog. Yet he battled away in a fiercely competetive midfield all season, making up eight places from the grid at both the British and the Turkish GPs in two epic drives. He proved that he could outperform the car and that he was a real racer at this level, as well as having the exceptional speed that we already knew. People who only watch the podium finishers missed out on this.
In 2008 he gave up on the car. I think the reason he did this was because Ross Brawn had given up with the car, so it was going nowhere. People criticised him for not outperforming Rubens when they knew that he could but it was, effectively, a lost season.
So Jensen has made a lot of really bad career choices. He is one of the very best drivers in F1 and is a lot more rounded in his skills than most. He is supremely smooth and accurate (almost to millimetres every lap) which works better for him as rule changes mean mechanical grip goes up and aerodynamic grip goes down. He is easy on the cars with great mechanical sympathy, can read a race tactically and so win at the slowest possible pace, a great talent. And is brilliant in the wet, is a great overtaker and can maintain his pace and concentration for the whole race. Overall I would only rate Alonso of the current generation as being so complete.
Now, more by luck than judgement, he has at long last got the car that he deserves. Let's hope Brawn have the resources to remain competetive throughout the season. If Mercedes Benz have any sense they will ensure that he has. Brawn is now their best chance for another WDC for their engines.
I'm curious as to where you got this information?In his first yeat of karting, 1991, he won all 34 races in the Kadet class (who can equal that?). Then went on to be riculously good in Formula Ford and Formula three.
When he came into F1 he made some bad choices so did not win till his 113rd GP, starting from 14th on the grid at Hungary in 2006. He went on to be the highest point scoring driver over the last six races that season.
But to me it was 2007 that made Button as an F1 driver. His car was visibly bad, a complete and total dog. Yet he battled away in a fiercely competetive midfield all season, making up eight places from the grid at both the British and the Turkish GPs in two epic drives. He proved that he could outperform the car and that he was a real racer at this level, as well as having the exceptional speed that we already knew. People who only watch the podium finishers missed out on this.
In 2008 he gave up on the car. I think the reason he did this was because Ross Brawn had given up with the car, so it was going nowhere. People criticised him for not outperforming Rubens when they knew that he could but it was, effectively, a lost season.
So Jensen has made a lot of really bad career choices. He is one of the very best drivers in F1 and is a lot more rounded in his skills than most. He is supremely smooth and accurate (almost to millimetres every lap) which works better for him as rule changes mean mechanical grip goes up and aerodynamic grip goes down. He is easy on the cars with great mechanical sympathy, can read a race tactically and so win at the slowest possible pace, a great talent. And is brilliant in the wet, is a great overtaker and can maintain his pace and concentration for the whole race. Overall I would only rate Alonso of the current generation as being so complete.
Now, more by luck than judgement, he has at long last got the car that he deserves. Let's hope Brawn have the resources to remain competetive throughout the season. If Mercedes Benz have any sense they will ensure that he has. Brawn is now their best chance for another WDC for their engines.
1989: First race win at the Clay Pigeon circuit in Dorset, England; winner of the British Kart Super Prix.
1990: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, five wins.
1991: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, 34 starts, 34 wins; winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1992: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship; winner of the British Junior TKM Kart Championship.
1993: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1994: 4th in British Junior TKM Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A European Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A Italian Kart Championship
1995: Winner of Senior ICA Italian Kart Championship; 2nd in World Formula A Kart Championship.
1996: 3rd in World Cup Kart Championship; 3rd in American Kart Championship.
1997: Winner of European Super A Kart Championship; winner of the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup at Suzuka.
so no, not his first year of karting...
1990: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, five wins.
1991: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, 34 starts, 34 wins; winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1992: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship; winner of the British Junior TKM Kart Championship.
1993: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1994: 4th in British Junior TKM Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A European Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A Italian Kart Championship
1995: Winner of Senior ICA Italian Kart Championship; 2nd in World Formula A Kart Championship.
1996: 3rd in World Cup Kart Championship; 3rd in American Kart Championship.
1997: Winner of European Super A Kart Championship; winner of the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup at Suzuka.
so no, not his first year of karting...
Edited by 911mot on Monday 13th April 14:55
There was the one cadet race where all 3 lap scorers missed seeing him go by and scored him as being one lap down, which meant he didn't win that race and gave him a prob with the championships, IIRC. Can't remember which year though. For some time afterwards in the karting magazines his dad ran an advert for his engine prep business showing a pic of Jenson in a race with a word balloon saying "I have dissapeared". 
I still don't know where i am with JB. he does have a great natural talent, but let's face it Flav sacked him and nobody has wanted him over the last 2 years or so. If Brawn hadn't kept him JB would be gone.
Having said that, it goes without saying that Ross Brawn has worked with the best and has elected to keep Jenson, and if Jenson goes on to show that everybody including me was wrong about him, i'll be delighted.
I still don't know where i am with JB. he does have a great natural talent, but let's face it Flav sacked him and nobody has wanted him over the last 2 years or so. If Brawn hadn't kept him JB would be gone.
Having said that, it goes without saying that Ross Brawn has worked with the best and has elected to keep Jenson, and if Jenson goes on to show that everybody including me was wrong about him, i'll be delighted.
911mot said:
1989: First race win at the Clay Pigeon circuit in Dorset, England; winner of the British Kart Super Prix.
1990: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, five wins.
1991: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, 34 starts, 34 wins; winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1992: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship; winner of the British Junior TKM Kart Championship.
1993: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1994: 4th in British Junior TKM Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A European Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A Italian Kart Championship
1995: Winner of Senior ICA Italian Kart Championship; 2nd in World Formula A Kart Championship.
1996: 3rd in World Cup Kart Championship; 3rd in American Kart Championship.
1997: Winner of European Super A Kart Championship; winner of the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup at Suzuka.
so no, not his first year of karting...
Thanks for that.1990: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, five wins.
1991: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, 34 starts, 34 wins; winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1992: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship; winner of the British Junior TKM Kart Championship.
1993: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1994: 4th in British Junior TKM Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A European Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A Italian Kart Championship
1995: Winner of Senior ICA Italian Kart Championship; 2nd in World Formula A Kart Championship.
1996: 3rd in World Cup Kart Championship; 3rd in American Kart Championship.
1997: Winner of European Super A Kart Championship; winner of the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup at Suzuka.
so no, not his first year of karting...
Edited by 911mot on Monday 13th April 14:55
My point still stands, a prodigous natural talent.
911mot said:
1989: First race win at the Clay Pigeon circuit in Dorset, England; winner of the British Kart Super Prix.
1990: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, five wins.
1991: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, 34 starts, 34 wins; winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1992: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship; winner of the British Junior TKM Kart Championship.
1993: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1994: 4th in British Junior TKM Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A European Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A Italian Kart Championship
1995: Winner of Senior ICA Italian Kart Championship; 2nd in World Formula A Kart Championship.
1996: 3rd in World Cup Kart Championship; 3rd in American Kart Championship.
1997: Winner of European Super A Kart Championship; winner of the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup at Suzuka.
so no, not his first year of karting...
He didn't win Cadet in 1990. 1990: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, five wins.
1991: Winner of the British Cadet Kart Championship, 34 starts, 34 wins; winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1992: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship; winner of the British Junior TKM Kart Championship.
1993: Winner of the British Open Kart Championship.
1994: 4th in British Junior TKM Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A European Kart Championship; Junior Intercontinental A Italian Kart Championship
1995: Winner of Senior ICA Italian Kart Championship; 2nd in World Formula A Kart Championship.
1996: 3rd in World Cup Kart Championship; 3rd in American Kart Championship.
1997: Winner of European Super A Kart Championship; winner of the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup at Suzuka.
so no, not his first year of karting...
Edited by 911mot on Monday 13th April 14:55
I'm suspicious about the 34starts and 34race wins.
Duke of Rothesay said:
My point still stands, a prodigous natural talent.
Agreed. I remember reading in Autosport that during his first year, at one of the early races (can't remember which) during practice he was having problems braking into one particular bend. He was consistantly overshooting the apex. He knew his car could stop from the speed he was doing if braked at the 100m board but it just wouldn't do it. After a while they found the solution. The marshalls had placed the 100m board too close to the corner. heebeegeetee said:
I still don't know where i am with JB. he does have a great natural talent, but let's face it Flav sacked him and nobody has wanted him over the last 2 years or so. If Brawn hadn't kept him JB would be gone.
Having said that, it goes without saying that Ross Brawn has worked with the best and has elected to keep Jenson, and if Jenson goes on to show that everybody including me was wrong about him, i'll be delighted.
Having said that, it goes without saying that Ross Brawn has worked with the best and has elected to keep Jenson, and if Jenson goes on to show that everybody including me was wrong about him, i'll be delighted.
Couldn't agree more.entropy said:
Big test for Button is how will he handle a WDC battle?
Can he create something from nothing, out smart and out race his nearest rivals in a more consistant basis?
Take the example of Massa. Top driver but was found wanting at times.
Yes but the times when Massa was found wanting last season where when Ferrari screwed up in the pits and when the Ferrari wouldn't get its tyres to work in the wet. Without these he would have won the WDC by a country mile. Can he create something from nothing, out smart and out race his nearest rivals in a more consistant basis?
Take the example of Massa. Top driver but was found wanting at times.
Duke of Rothesay said:
Yes but the times when Massa was found wanting last season where when Ferrari screwed up in the pits and when the Ferrari wouldn't get its tyres to work in the wet.
Yes, the ferrari was suddenly bad in the wet once Schumacher retired. Strange, 'cos during all the time he was at ferrari it always seemed bloody good in the wet.And Massa threw his car off the track in the first two races. That cost him the wdc too, did losing traction control.
Duke of Rothesay said:
entropy said:
Big test for Button is how will he handle a WDC battle?
Can he create something from nothing, out smart and out race his nearest rivals in a more consistant basis?
Take the example of Massa. Top driver but was found wanting at times.
Yes but the times when Massa was found wanting last season where when Ferrari screwed up in the pits and when the Ferrari wouldn't get its tyres to work in the wet. Without these he would have won the WDC by a country mile. Can he create something from nothing, out smart and out race his nearest rivals in a more consistant basis?
Take the example of Massa. Top driver but was found wanting at times.
I don't think that Jenson will have many issues with pressure. He always seems happy and relaxed and also if he keeps dominating then he may not need to worry too much about anyone else.
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