McLaren sponsors may quit
Discussion
it's one thing to have teams drop out for their own financial reasons, it's another to run them out...
that does rather put a different perspective on it all, how many of the existing teams could realistically scale down to £30M? whichever way you look at it, that's a lot of job cuts etc, seems to me we are heading for A1GP...
I find this somewhat ironic after all the crap about chassis designs etc, now we seem to be heading down stand everything....
that does rather put a different perspective on it all, how many of the existing teams could realistically scale down to £30M? whichever way you look at it, that's a lot of job cuts etc, seems to me we are heading for A1GP...
I find this somewhat ironic after all the crap about chassis designs etc, now we seem to be heading down stand everything....
Thanks for this, heard this on BBC breakfast, but Google gave no results, should havve known PH would have the answers!
Its a shame isn't it, i thought they were hankering after viewers, stopping a team from racing will not help that. Just let the teams race, Mclaren f
ked up at Australia, they were disqualified from Australia let that be that!
James
Its a shame isn't it, i thought they were hankering after viewers, stopping a team from racing will not help that. Just let the teams race, Mclaren f
ked up at Australia, they were disqualified from Australia let that be that!James
jimmy306 said:
Mclaren fked up at Australia, they were disqualified from Australia let that be that!
Fully agree, it has been blown up by the FIA, feeding the media and bringing further disrepute to the sport, shining a big spotlight on the incident in fact.ked up at Australia, they were disqualified from Australia let that be that!There will be further punishment, that is for sure, but I don't think there will be any exclusions. Probably a fine that will help reduce costs.
Steve
The national daily’s attack on the FiA over the threat to McLaren's position in F1 leaves a lot unsaid. In the Telegraphs there is the quote (from an ‘insider’, honestly) that is an overt criticism of the way Mossy runs the sport:
"I think we all know the subtext here; the FIA wanted to oust Ron Dennis. I believe the governing body have allowed this situation to escalate and it is doing no one any good – not McLaren, not the FIA and certainly not the sport. Apart from anything else, it is dissuading other potential sponsors from entering Formula One."
There were strong rumours that RD was looking to leave F1 well before the Stepneygate FiAsco and there was a theory that it was only Mossy's threat to oust RD that made him stay in. (I can equate with that.) I remember thinking that when RD put Mossy in the, what must have been for him, excruciatingly embarrassing position of having to be photographed shaking hands with RD, complete with corporate logo in the background, in essence admitting that what RD had said all the way through had been right, that RD might have jacked it in then.
RD went on to win the WDC and then 'moved back'. I've often thought that it is the presence of RD that kept their major sponsors with the team. Now the sponsors are saying they want out and are putting pressure on Mossy. What seems strange to me is that this pressure has been made public, not the most common tactic in the sport. With all the money at the disposal of the sponsors, one would think behind the scenes machinations would have been the most sensible option.
So in the words of that frog: What's going on? Because something certainly is.
I don't know enough about the sport to come to any conclusions given the limited information, but I know enough to know something is happening. If its history is anything to go by, in F1 you can never take things at face value. So what is the main plot?
RD is in there somewhere and maybe the leader given his seniority. But it is possible that he's had enough of the farcical intrigues and just wants out.
Oddly enough, the diffuser seems to have been the catalyst. I can't figure that one out.
The unity of FOTA is probably an illusion. No offence to the team managers but none have a fridge magnet which proclaims the greater good of the sport. That they have a union which speaks with a more or less single voice is a tribute to the genius of Mossy. This was not the time to abandon his crude but effective tactic of divide and conquer, which had served him well over the years.
The $100M fine was a warning to the other teams, a sort of: beware, I'm all powerful. But, it would appear, the timing was all wrong. Taking the moral high ground and then getting caught having it off with prostitutes does put you in a very awkward position.
Another odd thing is that the newspapers appear to be turning against Mossy after a time of sycophancy. The Times especially seemed to treat him with almost Hawking-like deference, as if Mossy was on a higher plain than the rest of us plebs. Odd, really, given that even my daughter can get a job that pays her. But two (at least) papers have put the opposite view today.
On one international daily they have a blog. I used to be a regular contributor but found that in any post of mine that mentioned Mossy without suggesting he should be beatified was binned. The nearest I got was to use the impersonal phrase: the presidency. And now this attack.
I should be working but I’m struggling to get a handle on all this. It might be just as it appears and everyone is being straight. If so, I’m off to buy a lottery ticket.
Flav is worried about something. And the only thing he worries about is Flav. So where’s the threat to him? He’s already lost his sponsors.
I can’t see F1 lasting through this crisis. The change came with the change of management in Ferrari. The most likely scenario is that they disagreed with Mossy over some point. Given Mossy’s previous when things don’t go entirely his way, Ferrari went from being the blue-eyed-boy to the anti-christ in one season.
Whatever comes out the other end, it won’t be F1 as we know it. Even if Mossy doesn’t pull the same stroke he did before and vote himself into the presidency again I can’t help thinking that things have gone too far for any short term rescue.
"I think we all know the subtext here; the FIA wanted to oust Ron Dennis. I believe the governing body have allowed this situation to escalate and it is doing no one any good – not McLaren, not the FIA and certainly not the sport. Apart from anything else, it is dissuading other potential sponsors from entering Formula One."
There were strong rumours that RD was looking to leave F1 well before the Stepneygate FiAsco and there was a theory that it was only Mossy's threat to oust RD that made him stay in. (I can equate with that.) I remember thinking that when RD put Mossy in the, what must have been for him, excruciatingly embarrassing position of having to be photographed shaking hands with RD, complete with corporate logo in the background, in essence admitting that what RD had said all the way through had been right, that RD might have jacked it in then.
RD went on to win the WDC and then 'moved back'. I've often thought that it is the presence of RD that kept their major sponsors with the team. Now the sponsors are saying they want out and are putting pressure on Mossy. What seems strange to me is that this pressure has been made public, not the most common tactic in the sport. With all the money at the disposal of the sponsors, one would think behind the scenes machinations would have been the most sensible option.
So in the words of that frog: What's going on? Because something certainly is.
I don't know enough about the sport to come to any conclusions given the limited information, but I know enough to know something is happening. If its history is anything to go by, in F1 you can never take things at face value. So what is the main plot?
RD is in there somewhere and maybe the leader given his seniority. But it is possible that he's had enough of the farcical intrigues and just wants out.
Oddly enough, the diffuser seems to have been the catalyst. I can't figure that one out.
The unity of FOTA is probably an illusion. No offence to the team managers but none have a fridge magnet which proclaims the greater good of the sport. That they have a union which speaks with a more or less single voice is a tribute to the genius of Mossy. This was not the time to abandon his crude but effective tactic of divide and conquer, which had served him well over the years.
The $100M fine was a warning to the other teams, a sort of: beware, I'm all powerful. But, it would appear, the timing was all wrong. Taking the moral high ground and then getting caught having it off with prostitutes does put you in a very awkward position.
Another odd thing is that the newspapers appear to be turning against Mossy after a time of sycophancy. The Times especially seemed to treat him with almost Hawking-like deference, as if Mossy was on a higher plain than the rest of us plebs. Odd, really, given that even my daughter can get a job that pays her. But two (at least) papers have put the opposite view today.
On one international daily they have a blog. I used to be a regular contributor but found that in any post of mine that mentioned Mossy without suggesting he should be beatified was binned. The nearest I got was to use the impersonal phrase: the presidency. And now this attack.
I should be working but I’m struggling to get a handle on all this. It might be just as it appears and everyone is being straight. If so, I’m off to buy a lottery ticket.
Flav is worried about something. And the only thing he worries about is Flav. So where’s the threat to him? He’s already lost his sponsors.
I can’t see F1 lasting through this crisis. The change came with the change of management in Ferrari. The most likely scenario is that they disagreed with Mossy over some point. Given Mossy’s previous when things don’t go entirely his way, Ferrari went from being the blue-eyed-boy to the anti-christ in one season.
Whatever comes out the other end, it won’t be F1 as we know it. Even if Mossy doesn’t pull the same stroke he did before and vote himself into the presidency again I can’t help thinking that things have gone too far for any short term rescue.
stevesingo said:
Fully agree, it has been blown up by the FIA, feeding the media and bringing further disrepute to the sport, shining a big spotlight on the incident in fact.
There will be further punishment, that is for sure, but I don't think there will be any exclusions. Probably a fine that will help reduce costs.
Steve
But how much? I reckon it should be in proportion to those punishments dished out to teams caught cheating in the past.There will be further punishment, that is for sure, but I don't think there will be any exclusions. Probably a fine that will help reduce costs.
Steve
Let's see: how about the most dangerous case of cheating the sport has seen. Benetton removes a filter that has a multiple role as fuel restrictor and safety device. As the driver and pit crew were subjected to painful burns, the others in the pitlane were under threat and the corporate big boys above the pits complex were in extreme danger, it is obviously a big one. So let's take that fine as the upper limit.
Is telling a few porkies to the stewards more or less culpable than putting other's lives and health at risk? I'd suggest not. So let's say 10%? That seems sensible. And, as there would appear to be no corporate culpability then, given that all the Benetton pit crew must have known what was going on, as well as the team manager (what was his name?) one has to say that one should cut the percentage to, say five.
On top of that, Benetton changed there story a number of times, five or six I seem to remember. Well, let's take five as it makes division that much easier. They lied five times, LH and co lied once. One into five leaves 1% of the fine levelled at Benetton for what was the most serious breach of regulations ever in the sport. 1% is easy enough o work out. Divide £0 by 100 and multiply by 1. Anyone can do that.
F1 without Lewis and Mclaren will not have the same exposure and just damage the whole thing. Like it or not guys, Brawn and Vettel fighting it out for the Chamoinship may be good for us but the masses will turn off. Same goes with Ferrari, F1 needs a strong Ferrari. The amount of Red Flags and merchandise you see at the GP's across the world is unbelievable and must bring so much revenue and fans to the GP's.
A fine of maybe 1-2million Euros will be suffice.
A fine of maybe 1-2million Euros will be suffice.
Derek Smith said:
Lots...
F1 is about Money, so follow the revenue and you'll have a fair idea of what's happening behind the scenes. Previously, despite any appearance the Bernie/Mosely show gave, there was stability. Gradually as agreements have ended, world financial crises have occurred, divorces have become impending etc etc, there is less stability.You're seeing various sharks circling in the famous Piranha Club. Unsurprising as the main players are reaching their sell by date. Bernie created a money making machine and the likes of Flavio, Todt, Dennis, Montezemolo etc all see the dollar signs. Previously Bernie offered stability and a fair amount of cash. However, it has been apparent for some time that the scales were tipped in Bernie's favour. So now the players sense that it's all up for grabs.
Forget about the things with four wheels - watching millionaires and billionaires get down and dirty trying to shaft each other is far more entertaining.
on a previous thread, I talked about a 2or 3 race ban that would include Spain, Monaco and Silverstone - maximum damage to the sponsors on the biggest weekends for them. Having spent millions already on accommodation, flights, parties - it would make them look like idiots not having Mclaren racing at those events
That was always the intention of the FIA - Mosley wants Mclaren gone.
The only hope is if Bernie can somehow persuade the FIA that it's not in the best interests of anyone to do this.
As far as I'm concerned there is a direct comparison to Schumacher in monaco when he blocked the track in the last secs of qualifying and he and the team lied to the stewards and said it wasn't deliberate.
Give Mclaren a warning - Lewis has already lost his points - so no fine and no ban so this BS can end.
I can't help reading between the lines and thinking McLaren' sponsors, far from wanting out, are just going into bat for their team, and threatening to pull out, brinkmanship style, as if to say if we go, then McLaren go, taken with whispers from Merc execs, Merc- we'll go. Force India and Brawn's engines? F1 would be in a right mess.
So better not go over the top with the punishment this time.
No massive fine, no suspension from races, no explusion from constructors (perhaps a few points), no points further deduction from Hamilton. I'm thinking its a shot across Mosley's bows, risky with that arse, in effect to say, you've got your pound of flesh RD is well out of it now, we're sorry, we'll take a few million $ fine, and a suspended sentence, anymore than that and we all take our ball home.
So better not go over the top with the punishment this time.
No massive fine, no suspension from races, no explusion from constructors (perhaps a few points), no points further deduction from Hamilton. I'm thinking its a shot across Mosley's bows, risky with that arse, in effect to say, you've got your pound of flesh RD is well out of it now, we're sorry, we'll take a few million $ fine, and a suspended sentence, anymore than that and we all take our ball home.
Edited by Northern Munkee on Thursday 23 April 10:48
I can't see Bernie/Mosley letting this happen. Sponsors going to see the FIA about a technical suspension is unprecedented no? Bernie/Mosley NEED McLaren (as they do Ferrari) and it's in there interests to not upset the sponsors.
Even if the do pull out, it won't be the collapse of McLaren, even if they have been getting all this bad press.
Afterall, the reason the sponsors are (supposedly) pulling out is because they won't get coverage at any races McLaren might get banned from, NOT because of the whole Hamilton/spygate etc.
Even if the do pull out, it won't be the collapse of McLaren, even if they have been getting all this bad press.
Afterall, the reason the sponsors are (supposedly) pulling out is because they won't get coverage at any races McLaren might get banned from, NOT because of the whole Hamilton/spygate etc.
woof said:
on a previous thread, I talked about a 2or 3 race ban that would include Spain, Monaco and Silverstone - maximum damage to the sponsors on the biggest weekends for them. Having spent millions already on accommodation, flights, parties - it would make them look like idiots not having Mclaren racing at those events
That was always the intention of the FIA - Mosley wants Mclaren gone.
The only hope is if Bernie can somehow persuade the FIA that it's not in the best interests of anyone to do this.
As far as I'm concerned there is a direct comparison to Schumacher in monaco when he blocked the track in the last secs of qualifying and he and the team lied to the stewards and said it wasn't deliberate.
Give Mclaren a warning - Lewis has already lost his points - so no fine and no ban so this BS can end.
There's one key difference with the Schumi Monaco incident. The stewards had no evidence of foul play. It was plainly obvious that he had blocked the track deliberately but there wasn't an admission of guilt or a radio transcript to incriminate him. That was always the intention of the FIA - Mosley wants Mclaren gone.
The only hope is if Bernie can somehow persuade the FIA that it's not in the best interests of anyone to do this.
As far as I'm concerned there is a direct comparison to Schumacher in monaco when he blocked the track in the last secs of qualifying and he and the team lied to the stewards and said it wasn't deliberate.
Give Mclaren a warning - Lewis has already lost his points - so no fine and no ban so this BS can end.
Mclaren on the other hand were dishonest and got caught with their pants down.
That's true - but the team and driver both lied to the stewards - not denying that Mclaren were f
king idiots for thinking they could do that.I certainly feel that Mclaren were trying to be careful and not do anything wrong during that incident.
because they feel (and quite rightly so) the FIA will penalise them at a drop of a hat.
Without the transcripts in front of me - they didn't tell the truth - but they didn't exactly lie.
Mclaren told LH to give the place back. then told him not to. Kind of cancels itself out.
In a court of law you might be able to argue that point. but this ain't no court of law.
I would hope any F1 fan would think the same here - there's no need for any further penalty.
If there is a penalty - and i suspect it's going to be a 3 race ban, then the damage will not only to mclaren, but to the entire grid and F1 in general.
woof said:
That's true - but the team and driver both lied to the stewards - not denying that Mclaren were fking idiots for thinking they could do that.
I certainly feel that Mclaren were trying to be careful and not do anything wrong during that incident.
because they feel (and quite rightly so) the FIA will penalise them at a drop of a hat.
Without the transcripts in front of me - they didn't tell the truth - but they didn't exactly lie.
Mclaren told LH to give the place back. then told him not to. Kind of cancels itself out.
In a court of law you might be able to argue that point. but this ain't no court of law.
I would hope any F1 fan would think the same here - there's no need for any further penalty.
If there is a penalty - and i suspect it's going to be a 3 race ban, then the damage will not only to mclaren, but to the entire grid and F1 in general.
Yeah they were trying to be careful in their own special blundering way. Much like leaving Lewis out on bald tyres in China, they mean well but it always goes wrong! king idiots for thinking they could do that.I certainly feel that Mclaren were trying to be careful and not do anything wrong during that incident.
because they feel (and quite rightly so) the FIA will penalise them at a drop of a hat.
Without the transcripts in front of me - they didn't tell the truth - but they didn't exactly lie.
Mclaren told LH to give the place back. then told him not to. Kind of cancels itself out.
In a court of law you might be able to argue that point. but this ain't no court of law.
I would hope any F1 fan would think the same here - there's no need for any further penalty.
If there is a penalty - and i suspect it's going to be a 3 race ban, then the damage will not only to mclaren, but to the entire grid and F1 in general.
I guess the main difference is that Ferrari got away with it (ish) and Mclaren didn't!
Derek Smith said:
stevesingo said:
Fully agree, it has been blown up by the FIA, feeding the media and bringing further disrepute to the sport, shining a big spotlight on the incident in fact.
There will be further punishment, that is for sure, but I don't think there will be any exclusions. Probably a fine that will help reduce costs.
Steve
But how much? I reckon it should be in proportion to those punishments dished out to teams caught cheating in the past.There will be further punishment, that is for sure, but I don't think there will be any exclusions. Probably a fine that will help reduce costs.
Steve
Let's see: how about the most dangerous case of cheating the sport has seen. Benetton removes a filter that has a multiple role as fuel restrictor and safety device. As the driver and pit crew were subjected to painful burns, the others in the pitlane were under threat and the corporate big boys above the pits complex were in extreme danger, it is obviously a big one. So let's take that fine as the upper limit.
Is telling a few porkies to the stewards more or less culpable than putting other's lives and health at risk? I'd suggest not. So let's say 10%? That seems sensible. And, as there would appear to be no corporate culpability then, given that all the Benetton pit crew must have known what was going on, as well as the team manager (what was his name?) one has to say that one should cut the percentage to, say five.
On top of that, Benetton changed there story a number of times, five or six I seem to remember. Well, let's take five as it makes division that much easier. They lied five times, LH and co lied once. One into five leaves 1% of the fine levelled at Benetton for what was the most serious breach of regulations ever in the sport. 1% is easy enough o work out. Divide £0 by 100 and multiply by 1. Anyone can do that.
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