KERS - forgive me for being a dummo

[schmalex]

So, the weight penalty for KERS is, I believe, 30kg. Is this an imposed weight penalty, or just the "natural" weight of the component parts of the system?

30kg seems like an awful lot of weight to carry around the length of a GP to get an extra 80bhp for 6 seconds or so per lap. If a team designed a KERS system that weighed, say, 10kg, would they have to carry an extra 20kg of ballast to even things up?

[paulmurr]

My understanding is that the car weighs the regulation 605kg with or without KERS. What the 30kg 'penalty' refers to is the ballast removed to keep the car at the minimum weight. As this weight is carried higher, the CoG is raised and the handling comprimised. Also, there is less ballast available to move around the car to change it's handling characteristics for each circuit.

[AlpineWhite]

30kg is the 'natural' weight of the system.

[jason-l]

The KERS system (batteries, etc) weighs approx 30kgs as reported.

The important thing to remember is car+driver minimum weight is 605kgs. ALL the teams' cars weigh less than that, so ALL the teams use ballast to (a) meet the minimum weight and (b) tune the weight distribution/balance of the car.

So... teams running KERS effectively have 30kgs LESS ballast to play with. The gross weight of ALL teams' car+driver+ballast(+KERS)=605kgs.

[woof]

Ballast can be used to great effect though - so loosing 30kgs of stragically place ballast can have a big effect of a cars handling - hence why most of the field have chosen not to run it.

[zac510]

If somebody could develop a battery KERS system weighing 10kg, Flavio would have kittens!

(It'd also be a major development in the industry )

[alanruss]

woof said:

Ballast can be used to great effect though - so loosing 30kgs of stragically place ballast can have a big effect of a cars handling - hence why most of the field have chosen not to run it.

I wonder if they will start next year having the batteries be moveable so they can act like ballast?

Also I wonder what actual seconds per lap they can get right now. I mean its obviously restricted at 7 secs approx to stop a "KERS-off". When hooning down the start finish straight you can see the little battery go right back to full with the new lap, so there must be juice in the tank if you follow?

Edited by alanruss on Thursday 23 April 12:33

[stevesingo]

I expect the size of the battery will be different for each race, all dependant on charging opportunity and usage opportunity. e.g A track with a long start finish straight, could well require enough storage for 7secs before the line and 7 secs after, but that would require a heavier battery.

For sure, it is very complex.

Steve

[paulrockliffe]

I think you're limited by storage capacity anyway, I don't think its the case that you could use 6.6s at the end of one lap and have 6.6s left for the start of the next. Not sure that KERS is being used that way anyway, and I'm sure that the ballast limitations would cancel out any benefit, so doubt anyone would run bigger batteries.

I'm surprised that the batteries aren't being used as ballast though, perhaps someone with more knowledge than me could comment on this?

[Riverside]

paulrockliffe said:

I'm surprised that the batteries aren't being used as ballast though, perhaps someone with more knowledge than me could comment on this?

Batteries need to be cooled, normal ballast doesn't. Ballast weights are probably more dense than KERs equipment too so could be used in smaller spaces.

[Chuggaboom]

Rules ? Sorry, don't have my F1 book to hand

The intersting bit is how KERS re-introduces the power to the drive train in conjunction with the engine...was that explained in the techy bit about KERS ?....I missed it.

[paulmurr]

Riverside said:

Ballast weights are probably more dense than KERs equipment too so could be used in smaller spaces.

I think the ballast weights are made of tungsten, which is incredibly dense, so very heavy for a given size.

[schmalex]

So, I guess the question is: Is the 7 secs or so of extra power per lap worth the compromise in not being able to distribute the weight exactly where and how you want it in the car?

[BoRED S2upid]

You will find teams using it or not using it depending on the track. Tracks where handling is parramount KERS will be ditched tracks with massive straights KERS will be more effective and reintroduced. I believe Ferrari are thinking of fitting it again this weekend due to the track when they ditched it at China.

[paulmurr]

I wonder how many cars will run KERS in Monaco or Hungary? Very few I'd imagine.

[Scuffers]

alanruss said:

woof said:

Ballast can be used to great effect though - so loosing 30kgs of stragically place ballast can have a big effect of a cars handling - hence why most of the field have chosen not to run it.

I wonder if they will start next year having the batteries be moveable so they can act like ballast?

Also I wonder what actual seconds per lap they can get right now. I mean its obviously restricted at 7 secs approx to stop a "KERS-off". When hooning down the start finish straight you can see the little battery go right back to full with the new lap, so there must be juice in the tank if you follow?

I too was confused about the graphic, but then realised it was only the indication of how much time of KERS they have left in that lap, NOT the current charge of the system.

I suspect that the system capacity is somewhat greater than the current limit (400kJ per lap with a max power output of 60Kw).

other point (as said) is they would usually use Tungsten as ballast, this is VERY density at 19.3 g/cc, as opposed to say a Lithium iron phosphate battery at some 2.5 g/cc.

[jimmy306]

Talking of KERS and dummo's. I heard a GP2 commentator (talking about f1) trying to work out how they recouped energy lost as heat from the brakes, and stored as a charge in a battery. How does he have the job that he does!

[brierleys]

alanruss said:

woof said:

Ballast can be used to great effect though - so loosing 30kgs of stragically place ballast can have a big effect of a cars handling - hence why most of the field have chosen not to run it.

I wonder if they will start next year having the batteries be moveable so they can act like ballast?

Also I wonder what actual seconds per lap they can get right now. I mean its obviously restricted at 7 secs approx to stop a "KERS-off". When hooning down the start finish straight you can see the little battery go right back to full with the new lap, so there must be juice in the tank if you follow?

Edited by alanruss on Thursday 23 April 12:33

A driver would never use the kers halfway down the straight (i.e. just after the start of a lap) as it's not effective at near top speed. By the first application of kers, the driver will have reached at least one braking zone and would have recharged the system.

I read before the season started that carefully placed ballast can give up to 0.7 of a second a lap advantage. That's why the use of kers is so borderline.

[woof]

paulmurr said:

I wonder how many cars will run KERS in Monaco or Hungary? Very few I'd imagine.

Monaco has the lowest penalty for carrying weight - it's only 0.25secs per 10kg.
Therefore i would think those that have Kers will probably use it - if for only going up the hill and out of rascasse for the start "straight". No use for overtaking of course.

[paulmurr]

woof said:

paulmurr said:

I wonder how many cars will run KERS in Monaco or Hungary? Very few I'd imagine.

Monaco has the lowest penalty for carrying weight - it's only 0.25secs per 10kg.
Therefore i would think those that have Kers will probably use it - if for only going up the hill and out of rascasse for the start "straight". No use for overtaking of course.

Interesting, I'd have thought that the penalty would be high as the cars seem to constantly be in a corner.