How big will the budget cap be?
Discussion
I don't understand how this is enforceable.
Take for example Red Bull Racing... ok, give them a budget of £30... but that's just to go racing, Red Bull Technology design and build their cars, but are technically not a competing team, they are a supplier, but in essence give their cars to Red Bull Racing (and Torro Rosso) for free.
What's to stop the teams hiding costs in other companies etc? I doubt the FIA will be allowed access to companies to audit them.
It's a bit like trying to limit the amount of CFD development, it's so easy to hide the true costs of it.
Anyone know what their proposals are?
Take for example Red Bull Racing... ok, give them a budget of £30... but that's just to go racing, Red Bull Technology design and build their cars, but are technically not a competing team, they are a supplier, but in essence give their cars to Red Bull Racing (and Torro Rosso) for free.
What's to stop the teams hiding costs in other companies etc? I doubt the FIA will be allowed access to companies to audit them.
It's a bit like trying to limit the amount of CFD development, it's so easy to hide the true costs of it.
Anyone know what their proposals are?
McLaren currently take around 100 people from the team to the bigger races, maybe 80 or so to the fly away's. How can you possibly put travel costs and salaries into the sport? Also what are teams with wind tunnels going to do, knock them down....don't be stupid.
IT / Engineer costs are massive, some teams are paying dozens of employees well over £ 150 K per annum for PHd aero and CFD specialists.
What about Ferrari who supply engines, and M-B.
What about McLaren Electronics who supply ECU's for F1
Red Bull, Renault, Toyota etc and how will the FIA patrol this.,...undertake an audit?
Teams will just hide costs and use good accountants to balance the books.
My guess would be a top spend of around £70 million with restrictions on electronics or £50 million with more freedom and testing.
A couple of years ago some teams ran 25-30 people on the test team, with trucks, motorhomes, hotels etc and were testing for 50-60 days a year....on private tracks!
IT / Engineer costs are massive, some teams are paying dozens of employees well over £ 150 K per annum for PHd aero and CFD specialists.
What about Ferrari who supply engines, and M-B.
What about McLaren Electronics who supply ECU's for F1
Red Bull, Renault, Toyota etc and how will the FIA patrol this.,...undertake an audit?
Teams will just hide costs and use good accountants to balance the books.
My guess would be a top spend of around £70 million with restrictions on electronics or £50 million with more freedom and testing.
A couple of years ago some teams ran 25-30 people on the test team, with trucks, motorhomes, hotels etc and were testing for 50-60 days a year....on private tracks!
belleair302 said:
McLaren currently take around 100 people from the team to the bigger races, maybe 80 or so to the fly away's. How can you possibly put travel costs and salaries into the sport? Also what are teams with wind tunnels going to do, knock them down....don't be stupid.
IT / Engineer costs are massive, some teams are paying dozens of employees well over £ 150 K per annum for PHd aero and CFD specialists.
What about Ferrari who supply engines, and M-B.
What about McLaren Electronics who supply ECU's for F1
Red Bull, Renault, Toyota etc and how will the FIA patrol this.,...undertake an audit?
Teams will just hide costs and use good accountants to balance the books.
My guess would be a top spend of around £70 million with restrictions on electronics or £50 million with more freedom and testing.
A couple of years ago some teams ran 25-30 people on the test team, with trucks, motorhomes, hotels etc and were testing for 50-60 days a year....on private tracks!
well said....IT / Engineer costs are massive, some teams are paying dozens of employees well over £ 150 K per annum for PHd aero and CFD specialists.
What about Ferrari who supply engines, and M-B.
What about McLaren Electronics who supply ECU's for F1
Red Bull, Renault, Toyota etc and how will the FIA patrol this.,...undertake an audit?
Teams will just hide costs and use good accountants to balance the books.
My guess would be a top spend of around £70 million with restrictions on electronics or £50 million with more freedom and testing.
A couple of years ago some teams ran 25-30 people on the test team, with trucks, motorhomes, hotels etc and were testing for 50-60 days a year....on private tracks!
at £30M, how many redundancy notices would be required? for the UK alone, that would be a few thousand people out of a job...
As said, how would you ever be able to police this? unless you subscribe to the std engine std car etc direction her Spankie wants....
I think it'll be £40m, and we'll benefit from new teams on the grid, with additional prize money for those under the regulations, technically a F1(b) class.
The majority won't subscribe to the cap, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a McLaren and Ferrari F1(b) team running under the new regulations.
Wait until the announcement later today, then we can pass judgement, if it gets more cars on the grid it's a good thing, so long as they remain 'relatively' competetive.
The majority won't subscribe to the cap, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a McLaren and Ferrari F1(b) team running under the new regulations.
Wait until the announcement later today, then we can pass judgement, if it gets more cars on the grid it's a good thing, so long as they remain 'relatively' competetive.
It's £40m. Autosport.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74947
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74947
Edited by plg101 on Thursday 30th April 12:03
Press Release
World Motor Sport Council 30/04/2009
An extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council was held in Paris on 29 April 2009. The following decisions were taken:
FORMULA ONE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP
2010 FIA Formula One World Championship
Applications to compete in the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship are to be submitted to the FIA during the period 22-29 May 2009. Teams must state in their application whether they wish to compete under cost-cap regulations.
The maximum number of cars permitted to enter the Championship has been increased to 26, two being entered by each competitor.
The FIA will publish the list of cars and drivers accepted on 12 June 2009, having first notified unsuccessful applicants.
Cost Cap Regulations
From 2010, all teams will have the option to compete with cars built and operated within a stringent cost cap.
The cost cap for 2010 will be £40m per annum*. This figure will cover all team expenditure except:
Marketing and hospitality;
Remuneration for test or race drivers, including any young driver programmes;
Fines or penalties imposed by the FIA;
Engine costs (for 2010 only);
Any expenditure which the team can demonstrate has no influence on its performance in the Championship;
Dividends (including any tax thereon) paid from profits relating to participation in the Championship.
One Commissioner should be a finance expert and the other should have high level experience in motor sport. The Chairman should have appropriate experience and standing in motor sport or sports governance. All members of the Costs Commission shall be independent of all teams.
In addition to the payments which it already makes to the top ten teams in the Championship, Formula One Management, the commercial rights holder, has agreed to offer participation fees and expenses to the new teams. This includes an annual payment of US$10 million to each team plus free transportation of two chassis and freight up to 10,000 kg in weight (not including the two chassis) as well as 20 air tickets (economy class) for each round trip for events held outside Europe.
To be eligible for this, each new team must qualify as a “Constructor” and demonstrate that it has the necessary facilities, financial resources and technical competence to compete effectively in Formula One.
To enable these cars to compete with those from teams which are not subject to cost constraints, the cost-capped cars will be allowed greater technical freedom.
The principal technical freedoms allowed are:
1. Movable wings, front and rear.
2. An engine which is not subject to a rev limit.
The teams will also be allowed unlimited out-of-season track testing with no restrictions on the scale and speed of wind tunnel testing.
Changes applicable to all teams
It was confirmed that from 2010, refuelling during a race will be forbidden in order to save the costs of transporting refuelling equipment and increase the incentive for engine builders to improve fuel economy (to save weight).
It was also confirmed that tyre blankets will be banned and that the ban on other tyre-heating devices will be maintained.
Full details plus information on further amendments to the 2010 Sporting and Technical Regulations will be available shortly on www.fia.com.
By exception, if supported by the Safety Commission, the FIA WMSC may approve the issue of the Formula One Super Licence to persons judged by the Council to have met the intent of the qualification process.
World Motor Sport Council 30/04/2009
An extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council was held in Paris on 29 April 2009. The following decisions were taken:
FORMULA ONE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP
2010 FIA Formula One World Championship
Applications to compete in the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship are to be submitted to the FIA during the period 22-29 May 2009. Teams must state in their application whether they wish to compete under cost-cap regulations.
The maximum number of cars permitted to enter the Championship has been increased to 26, two being entered by each competitor.
The FIA will publish the list of cars and drivers accepted on 12 June 2009, having first notified unsuccessful applicants.
Cost Cap Regulations
From 2010, all teams will have the option to compete with cars built and operated within a stringent cost cap.
The cost cap for 2010 will be £40m per annum*. This figure will cover all team expenditure except:
Marketing and hospitality;
Remuneration for test or race drivers, including any young driver programmes;
Fines or penalties imposed by the FIA;
Engine costs (for 2010 only);
Any expenditure which the team can demonstrate has no influence on its performance in the Championship;
Dividends (including any tax thereon) paid from profits relating to participation in the Championship.
- For the purposes of these Regulations, the financial year is 1 January to 31 December.
One Commissioner should be a finance expert and the other should have high level experience in motor sport. The Chairman should have appropriate experience and standing in motor sport or sports governance. All members of the Costs Commission shall be independent of all teams.
In addition to the payments which it already makes to the top ten teams in the Championship, Formula One Management, the commercial rights holder, has agreed to offer participation fees and expenses to the new teams. This includes an annual payment of US$10 million to each team plus free transportation of two chassis and freight up to 10,000 kg in weight (not including the two chassis) as well as 20 air tickets (economy class) for each round trip for events held outside Europe.
To be eligible for this, each new team must qualify as a “Constructor” and demonstrate that it has the necessary facilities, financial resources and technical competence to compete effectively in Formula One.
To enable these cars to compete with those from teams which are not subject to cost constraints, the cost-capped cars will be allowed greater technical freedom.
The principal technical freedoms allowed are:
1. Movable wings, front and rear.
2. An engine which is not subject to a rev limit.
The teams will also be allowed unlimited out-of-season track testing with no restrictions on the scale and speed of wind tunnel testing.
Changes applicable to all teams
It was confirmed that from 2010, refuelling during a race will be forbidden in order to save the costs of transporting refuelling equipment and increase the incentive for engine builders to improve fuel economy (to save weight).
It was also confirmed that tyre blankets will be banned and that the ban on other tyre-heating devices will be maintained.
Full details plus information on further amendments to the 2010 Sporting and Technical Regulations will be available shortly on www.fia.com.
By exception, if supported by the Safety Commission, the FIA WMSC may approve the issue of the Formula One Super Licence to persons judged by the Council to have met the intent of the qualification process.
dirty boy said:
Not too bad really, considering the cap seems to be purely on the development.
The accountants will be earning their money on these new proposals though
Will this sate Ferrari? After all they have a lovely test track next door to the factory....The accountants will be earning their money on these new proposals though
Edited by dirty boy on Thursday 30th April 12:08
dirty boy][b said:
1. Movable wings, front and rear.
2. An engine which is not subject to a rev limit.
The teams will also be allowed unlimited out-of-season track testing with no restrictions on the scale and speed of wind tunnel testing.[/b]
Not too bad really, considering the cap seems to be purely on the development.
The accountants will be earning their money on these new proposals though
Its the wind tunnel bit that will get them.2. An engine which is not subject to a rev limit.
The teams will also be allowed unlimited out-of-season track testing with no restrictions on the scale and speed of wind tunnel testing.[/b]
Not too bad really, considering the cap seems to be purely on the development.
The accountants will be earning their money on these new proposals though
My money is on a Williams Cosworth revving to well over 20K next year.
Are the movable wings and unfixed rev limit really going to be that much of an advantage, when instead you could be developing the rest of the car with a budget at least 10 times greater (for the top teams)?
If engine development comes under the budget cap, which it does from 2011, then I don't think much will be gained, even with the derestriction on engine limits. But then again, Mercedes is only in F1 with engines, so will they put pressure on McLaren to sign up?
Will be interesting to see who takes up the budget cap thats for sure!
If engine development comes under the budget cap, which it does from 2011, then I don't think much will be gained, even with the derestriction on engine limits. But then again, Mercedes is only in F1 with engines, so will they put pressure on McLaren to sign up?
Will be interesting to see who takes up the budget cap thats for sure!
navier_stokes said:
Are the movable wings and unfixed rev limit really going to be that much of an advantage, when instead you could be developing the rest of the car with a budget at least 10 times greater (for the top teams)?
If engine development comes under the budget cap, which it does from 2011, then I don't think much will be gained, even with the derestriction on engine limits. But then again, Mercedes is only in F1 with engines, so will they put pressure on McLaren to sign up?
Will be interesting to see who takes up the budget cap thats for sure!
I think moveable aero could make a significant difference, and the higher rev limit could provide a decent amount of extra horses.If engine development comes under the budget cap, which it does from 2011, then I don't think much will be gained, even with the derestriction on engine limits. But then again, Mercedes is only in F1 with engines, so will they put pressure on McLaren to sign up?
Will be interesting to see who takes up the budget cap thats for sure!
It's certainly possible.
dirty boy said:
navier_stokes said:
Are the movable wings and unfixed rev limit really going to be that much of an advantage, when instead you could be developing the rest of the car with a budget at least 10 times greater (for the top teams)?
If engine development comes under the budget cap, which it does from 2011, then I don't think much will be gained, even with the derestriction on engine limits. But then again, Mercedes is only in F1 with engines, so will they put pressure on McLaren to sign up?
Will be interesting to see who takes up the budget cap thats for sure!
I think moveable aero could make a significant difference, and the higher rev limit could provide a decent amount of extra horses.If engine development comes under the budget cap, which it does from 2011, then I don't think much will be gained, even with the derestriction on engine limits. But then again, Mercedes is only in F1 with engines, so will they put pressure on McLaren to sign up?
Will be interesting to see who takes up the budget cap thats for sure!
It's certainly possible.
I think team's like Williams who have a smaller budget but are equally technically capable as the bigger teams will have a good advantage under the cost capping.
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