LMP1 Ferrari return to Le Mans?
Discussion
I have to say I got to wondering about this when I saw that Luca di Montythingybob was the starter and that Stefano Domenicali was also expected to be in attendance.
I imagine any such move would be timed to coincide with the regulation changes due in a couple of years time (maybe sooner - can't remember) to do with engines, etc. Unless the rules to balance petrol and dismals are sorted out I can't see them entering before then, although they may dip their toes in the water to get some development time in.
I think it would be good to see them back. In fact, I'd also like to see McLaren make a reappearance. And maybe Toyota might be tempted back if there was some suitable competition and F1 didn't offer them anything - I seem to recall reading somewhere that it's still viewed as unfinished business for them.
I've got to say that FMSC enjoy a dig at F1:
"With F1 having a steely resolve to destroy themselves,
"as the F1 budget cap arguments escalate,
"the increasingly dumbed down spec racing that has plagued the so called 'pinnacle' of motorsport.
"as budget caps come into force or a reduction in the innovation that F1 teams can achieve
"Ferrari could have a lot of spare capacity"
Let's hear it for the brotherhood of motor sport.
"With F1 having a steely resolve to destroy themselves,
"as the F1 budget cap arguments escalate,
"the increasingly dumbed down spec racing that has plagued the so called 'pinnacle' of motorsport.
"as budget caps come into force or a reduction in the innovation that F1 teams can achieve
"Ferrari could have a lot of spare capacity"
Let's hear it for the brotherhood of motor sport.
Iain328 said:
Can't see it - you can't win Le Mans without a diesel & that's just not Maranello's bag.....
Can't see it either, for that reason, and that it has (brace yourselves here PH-ers) Le Mans, sportscars, has a very low profile outside motor racing fans, as a branding advertising vehicle. Edited by Iain328 on Wednesday 6th May 14:38
That said, lets say Ferrari have money to burn, actually want an engineering excellence project (rather than a throw more money than nearly anyone else at F1, save Toyota F1), then they could do both, F1 cheap at say an all in £80-100m all in, leaving say a comfortable £50m for LMP1, if the ACO have a fiddle with the equivalency rules, to make petrol/diesel more even. Although I'm not sure if that would just accelerate Le Mans down a regulation tinkering route, and you'd wonder whether Audi and Peugeot would be too pleased, or for that matter whether Ferrari would not find LMP1 fairly restrictive, these days.
Nick M said:
Given that Aston Martin are competing in LMP1, then perhaps Ferrari view them as being 'competition' and hence that has triggered them to have a look at Le Mans.
Also, the US is (was) Ferrari's biggest market so a campaign in the ALMS might have some value.
I'm assuming that the ALMS doesn't come under the FiA umbrella. Could be a good place for both Ferrari and McLaren to go if they decide to leave F1. Ron could run a racing team without having to look over his shoulder.Also, the US is (was) Ferrari's biggest market so a campaign in the ALMS might have some value.
Edited by VladD on Wednesday 6th May 16:03
To my mind, the most iconic Ferrari racing cars have all been Sports or GT - P3, 512M, 312P, 250GTO, 250TR, 365GTB/4.
The older F1 cars, before aerodynamics began to hold sway were distinctive - 312, 312T, 312T5, 126, but the GT's caught the imagination. Hopefully there is enough scope in the LMP1 regs for a distinctive modern Fezza.
There are so many good reasons for Ferrari to go down this route. Porsche has already proven that the law of diminishing returns applies when it comes to continuing sporting success being linked to car sales. So Ferrari could pick and choose whichever series or classes it felt like. Accepting an F1 budget cap would decimate it's racing team. Far better to redirect and reshape it within it's own terms. Feasibly they could run F1 and sports car side by side, but the cleaner approach would be a clean break with Mosely and Ecclestone.
The American's would love an ALMS presence, and you can see ALMS and ACO bending over backwards to accommodate them. Done right it could set the seal for any number of manufacturers following suit.
All it needs is Luca to have the balls to do it. Full blown LMP1 - marketing man's wet dream.
The older F1 cars, before aerodynamics began to hold sway were distinctive - 312, 312T, 312T5, 126, but the GT's caught the imagination. Hopefully there is enough scope in the LMP1 regs for a distinctive modern Fezza.
There are so many good reasons for Ferrari to go down this route. Porsche has already proven that the law of diminishing returns applies when it comes to continuing sporting success being linked to car sales. So Ferrari could pick and choose whichever series or classes it felt like. Accepting an F1 budget cap would decimate it's racing team. Far better to redirect and reshape it within it's own terms. Feasibly they could run F1 and sports car side by side, but the cleaner approach would be a clean break with Mosely and Ecclestone.
The American's would love an ALMS presence, and you can see ALMS and ACO bending over backwards to accommodate them. Done right it could set the seal for any number of manufacturers following suit.
All it needs is Luca to have the balls to do it. Full blown LMP1 - marketing man's wet dream.
Aren't the regs going to change in the next year or so to make petrol cars more competative? I seem to remember reading somewhere that the days of the oil-burner at the head of the field are rather numbered and that they would fall into a smaller, and slower, sub classification.
As for sports cars being the Cinderella formula, I think it might be because the likes of Ferrari et al are not in it. In the days of Jaguar in WSC (>20 years ago! Difficult to believe) there was quite a lot of press and TV coverage in this country. I can see it a way of advertising Mclaren's new road cars. I'm off to Silverstone in (October?) for the sportscar race and going with a group of about 6. But you'd have to study the specialist mags to know it is on.
All sportscar racing needs is some degree of support: advertising, media, that sort of thing. And, dare I say, doing away with diesel.
And it needs shorter races to fit on TV. One driver per car so as not to confuse the casual viewer. And absolutely no suggestion of endurance.One formula might help. Integration between all the various regulators so there was some movement between countries.
And no oil burners. Have I mentioned that?
Edited to add: And what Liethen said.
As for sports cars being the Cinderella formula, I think it might be because the likes of Ferrari et al are not in it. In the days of Jaguar in WSC (>20 years ago! Difficult to believe) there was quite a lot of press and TV coverage in this country. I can see it a way of advertising Mclaren's new road cars. I'm off to Silverstone in (October?) for the sportscar race and going with a group of about 6. But you'd have to study the specialist mags to know it is on.
All sportscar racing needs is some degree of support: advertising, media, that sort of thing. And, dare I say, doing away with diesel.
And it needs shorter races to fit on TV. One driver per car so as not to confuse the casual viewer. And absolutely no suggestion of endurance.One formula might help. Integration between all the various regulators so there was some movement between countries.
And no oil burners. Have I mentioned that?
Edited to add: And what Liethen said.
Edited by Derek Smith on Wednesday 6th May 16:05
It's probably just posturing by Ferrari as a threat to leave F1 if the FIA don't change the budget cut proposals. They did the same thing in the 80s and even went so far as constructing an Indycar to 'prove' that they were serious.
That said, does anyone honestly think F1 would be the same without Ferrari? The standard of competition wouldn't change, but there just wouldn't be the same media or fan interest and F1 would soon end up as just another anonymous formula.
But the thought of a modern works Ferrari sports prototype is indeed appetising! The 333SPs were the last in a line of gorgeous sportscars and I for one hanker after more of the same.
That said, does anyone honestly think F1 would be the same without Ferrari? The standard of competition wouldn't change, but there just wouldn't be the same media or fan interest and F1 would soon end up as just another anonymous formula.
But the thought of a modern works Ferrari sports prototype is indeed appetising! The 333SPs were the last in a line of gorgeous sportscars and I for one hanker after more of the same.
pwrmotorsport said:
It's probably just posturing by Ferrari as a threat to leave F1 if the FIA don't change the budget cut proposals. They did the same thing in the 80s and even went so far as constructing an Indycar to 'prove' that they were serious.
I fully agree with this.pwrmotorsport said:
That said, does anyone honestly think F1 would be the same without Ferrari? The standard of competition wouldn't change, but there just wouldn't be the same media or fan interest and F1 would soon end up as just another anonymous formula.
I fully disagree with this.pwrmotorsport said:
But the thought of a modern works Ferrari sports prototype is indeed appetising! The 333SPs were the last in a line of gorgeous sportscars and I for one hanker after more of the same.
I fully agree with this.I suppose given the spare factory capacity under a budget limit, this might be plausible. I think it's highly unlikely though. Audi have spent £millions to build up their Le Mans team. Peugeot was the best sportscar team in history by 1993 and easily running 36 hour tests with the 905, but haven't been able to beat them in any significant event yet with the 908. These guys are operating at an epic level. You only need to study the teams in action to understand how well-prepared well-disciplined they are.
The 333SP was a beautiful car which really helped kick-start the post-Group C rehabilitation of sports prototype racing. However, it was very much a privateer effort and never truly on the pace of the Porsche WSC 95 which was the benchmark during the 333SP's high-water period. The F50 GT1 being the last effort they had and they basically bottled it. I think the CLK GTR had raised the bar too high and they knew it; despite positive reviews of the car's speed according to contemporary reviews.
The idea of a works Ferrari with MS at the wheel thundering round Le Mans is a tremendously romantic notion, but the last time the works team tried it was 1973 and Matra comprehensively nailed them. I think the fact that Audi and Peugeot are already miles ahead would prove suitably discouraging. However, as the 330P4, 312PB and 333SP are by far my favourite sports prototypes, I would dearly love to see a campaign again.
Political manoeuvring and little more, if you ask me.
The 333SP was a beautiful car which really helped kick-start the post-Group C rehabilitation of sports prototype racing. However, it was very much a privateer effort and never truly on the pace of the Porsche WSC 95 which was the benchmark during the 333SP's high-water period. The F50 GT1 being the last effort they had and they basically bottled it. I think the CLK GTR had raised the bar too high and they knew it; despite positive reviews of the car's speed according to contemporary reviews.
The idea of a works Ferrari with MS at the wheel thundering round Le Mans is a tremendously romantic notion, but the last time the works team tried it was 1973 and Matra comprehensively nailed them. I think the fact that Audi and Peugeot are already miles ahead would prove suitably discouraging. However, as the 330P4, 312PB and 333SP are by far my favourite sports prototypes, I would dearly love to see a campaign again.
Political manoeuvring and little more, if you ask me.
chevronb37 said:
I suppose given the spare factory capacity under a budget limit, this might be plausible. I think it's highly unlikely though. Audi have spent £millions to build up their Le Mans team. Peugeot was the best sportscar team in history by 1993 and easily running 36 hour tests with the 905, but haven't been able to beat them in any significant event yet with the 908. These guys are operating at an epic level. You only need to study the teams in action to understand how well-prepared well-disciplined they are.
I agree with the level of professionalism shown by peugeot and Audi. But it makes you wonder why they didn't take the step into F1. I know peugeot did but not as a team.The reason that springs to mind is that they felt they could not compete with the expertise and engineering skills of Ferrari, McLaren and the other top notch F1 teams. I mean, why spend all that money in a formula where the returns are nowhere near the same?
With the limitations being imposed on F1 I'd suggest there's little in it for Ferrari. They would have lost all their advantages, and they are struggling currently even with them.
They abandoned sports cars when they kept getting beaten. It could go the same way for F1.
And then there are races in Europe, perhaps lots of them if other F1 teams follow them.
If it was BMW and Merc I'd say that saloon car racing was the answer for them but if Ferrari opt for sports cars big time then there's that massive fan base that would be very appealing.
Leithen said:
To my mind, the most iconic Ferrari racing cars have all been Sports or GT - P3, 512M, 312P, 250GTO, 250TR, 365GTB/4.
The older F1 cars, before aerodynamics began to hold sway were distinctive - 312, 312T, 312T5, 126, but the GT's caught the imagination. Hopefully there is enough scope in the LMP1 regs for a distinctive modern Fezza.
IMHO, the pinnacle of F1 design purity was the Ferrari 640.The older F1 cars, before aerodynamics began to hold sway were distinctive - 312, 312T, 312T5, 126, but the GT's caught the imagination. Hopefully there is enough scope in the LMP1 regs for a distinctive modern Fezza.
It was so cleanly designed and such a beautiful, yet distinctive, shape.
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff