Discussion
I think at this stage it is more a threat to ignore the 29 May deadline. It would seem to show that there is some degree of unity in FOTA although, as always, there are a number of teams that are prepared to sign on the dotted. Williams, Brawn, Force India? But not, it would appear, Toyota, Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes(?), Renault(?).
flemke said:
Let's hope that the FIA do not come back offering the "compromise" of dropping the uncapped option, insofar as no team's going to choose it anyhow.
If all ten FOTA members can agree on a cap limit - whatever it may be - then the FIA should STFU and let them get on with it.
Perhaps a little simplistic but how necessary is the FIA should all the FOTA teams stick to their guns and for argument sake abandon 'F1' in it's current form.If all ten FOTA members can agree on a cap limit - whatever it may be - then the FIA should STFU and let them get on with it.
Is it feasible for 'F1' to restart but without the control of the FIA?
flemke said:
If all ten FOTA members can agree on a cap limit - whatever it may be - then the FIA should STFU and let them get on with it.
Agreed, but I don't think Spanky Max will do so. He'll argue that he has to protect the new teams (from whom there's a little talk, and rather less substance at this stage).Fire99 said:
Perhaps a little simplistic but how necessary is the FIA should all the FOTA teams stick to their guns and for argument sake abandon 'F1' in it's current form.
Is it feasible for 'F1' to restart but without the control of the FIA?
I would imagine it possible to breakaway IF all teams could agree (or enough of them to make a viable series). Very big IF though IMO.Is it feasible for 'F1' to restart but without the control of the FIA?
I doubt it could be called F1 though, or any derivative. I imagine Bernie and Max have the rights to that.
Murph7355 said:
Fire99 said:
Perhaps a little simplistic but how necessary is the FIA should all the FOTA teams stick to their guns and for argument sake abandon 'F1' in it's current form.
Is it feasible for 'F1' to restart but without the control of the FIA?
I would imagine it possible to breakaway IF all teams could agree (or enough of them to make a viable series). Very big IF though IMO.Is it feasible for 'F1' to restart but without the control of the FIA?
I doubt it could be called F1 though, or any derivative. I imagine Bernie and Max have the rights to that.
They unfortunately have a lot more than only that.
They have exclusive contracts with most of the "best" (in the commercial sense) circuits.
They have exclusive contracts with the best-paying broadcasters.
They sanction the drivers in all FIA events, not only F1.
It's not to be overlooked that the FIA operate EuroNCAP, on which all the carmakers depend for safety ratings. It has been claimed that BMW, for example, were strong-armed by the FIA into agreeing to drop their objection to V8s, in return for getting the proper EuroNCAP rating on one of their most important models.
Breakaway series rarely work against a pre-existing network.
The difficulty of making a breakaway was manifest when the GPMA tried to bring one off a few years ago, at a time when the carmakers were flush with cash and self-confidence. I for one would love to see them break away successfully now, but it's not likely to happen. The teams will negotiate with Mosley, he'll agree to a more reasonable cap and terms, he'll claim that it was he who "saved" F1 (
), and he'll be re-elected in October.flemke said:
They certainly do.
They unfortunately have a lot more than only that.
They have exclusive contracts with most of the "best" (in the commercial sense) circuits.
They have exclusive contracts with the best-paying broadcasters.
They sanction the drivers in all FIA events, not only F1.
It's not to be overlooked that the FIA operate EuroNCAP, on which all the carmakers depend for safety ratings. It has been claimed that BMW, for example, were strong-armed by the FIA into agreeing to drop their objection to V8s, in return for getting the proper EuroNCAP rating on one of their most important models.
Breakaway series rarely work against a pre-existing network.
The difficulty of making a breakaway was manifest when the GPMA tried to bring one off a few years ago, at a time when the carmakers were flush with cash and self-confidence. I for one would love to see them break away successfully now, but it's not likely to happen. The teams will negotiate with Mosley, he'll agree to a more reasonable cap and terms, he'll claim that it was he who "saved" F1 (), and he'll be re-elected in October.
This IMO is the trouble when the 'beast' gets too big. From what you say Flemke the FIA is pretty huge in its control and the commercial power that it holds. You could say it's a million miles away from 20-25 racers at the pinnacle of their sport racing round a couple of dozen race tracks per year.They unfortunately have a lot more than only that.
They have exclusive contracts with most of the "best" (in the commercial sense) circuits.
They have exclusive contracts with the best-paying broadcasters.
They sanction the drivers in all FIA events, not only F1.
It's not to be overlooked that the FIA operate EuroNCAP, on which all the carmakers depend for safety ratings. It has been claimed that BMW, for example, were strong-armed by the FIA into agreeing to drop their objection to V8s, in return for getting the proper EuroNCAP rating on one of their most important models.
Breakaway series rarely work against a pre-existing network.
The difficulty of making a breakaway was manifest when the GPMA tried to bring one off a few years ago, at a time when the carmakers were flush with cash and self-confidence. I for one would love to see them break away successfully now, but it's not likely to happen. The teams will negotiate with Mosley, he'll agree to a more reasonable cap and terms, he'll claim that it was he who "saved" F1 (
), and he'll be re-elected in October.There seems to be such vast commercial implications to every decision it's like a circular chess board with too many backs to scratch and contracts to get the most return from.
I'm not one to say Ecclestone or Mosley were never bad for the sport but they seem to have allowed F1 to disappear up it's own commercial backside and it really does seem in danger of meltdown.
From what's been said by those more in the know than me, I hope some form of interim agreement is reached between the FOTA and Mosley but one which I hope will allow him to go in the not too distant future.
F1 clearly needs new blood but on the governing body side as apposed to the drivers / teams.
flemke said:
It's not to be overlooked that the FIA operate EuroNCAP, on which all the carmakers depend for safety ratings.
Huh? The FIA is merely a member organisation and has a representative role for some motoring clubs. Max Mosley used to be chairman, but his tenure ended in 2004.EuroNCAP is just a conglomeration of government transport authorities, national motoring clubs (represented by ADAC and FIA), and industry groups. Its test centres are operated by a variety of organisations. You can't get much more independent than EuroNCAP.
flemke said:
They have exclusive contracts with most of the "best" (in the commercial sense) circuits.
I wonder what this means exactly? Does FOM have contracts with the manufacturers not to race on those circuits except for F1 purposes?Edited by Jungles on Monday 11th May 07:24
I remember reading an article at the time of the last breakaway threat that the 'exclusive' nature of the FiA's contract was likely to be declared unlawful at an early stage as it was, in the eyes of the author, quite clearly against the then newish competition laws. Whilst a few yers ago the EU could quite happily ignore such things, since they've been taking various international concerns to court for damages - and against Gates, Mosley is small fry, almost krill - and sudden relaxing of the rules to suit some institution in the same bed as the EU would be frowned upon. And why isn't the Microsoft monopoly court case called Gatesgate?
Further, the 'threat' that FOM holds over the circuits, that of do it my way or else you won't get a GP, is weakened to a degree by the fact that they don't have a GP and, even if they did, it would cost them more than they get back. I was a bit surprised by the number of empty grandstand seats for the Spanish GP.
The FiA and FOM would be aware of the many case stateds that have come out in recent years. It is almost as if the EU wants to encourage lawyers. Whilst nothing is set in stone when it comes to laws - such a standard would negate the need for expensive lawyers and that would suit no one, or at least no one who make the rules - there would be little to suggest that 'exclusive' is something of a non word in the EU.
Compromise is the name of the game I suppose and a new series would be something of a gamble at a time when money isn't slopping around. But Mosley has to take care. A number of teams have said precisely what they want and justified their demands. If these are ignored because Mosley thinks he's in a strong position then the situation could go to silly levels. Some teams will sign up on the 29th if that's what Mosley demands. But what if five teams don't? Wh ilst Eccs and Mosley say they are having to use water cannon for crowd control against the overwhelming number of new teams wanting a bit of the action for 2010, would they still want to be associated with a series without Ferrari and the other big teams? It's one thing to say you've got enough for a grid of 26, but if five go, sixteen is not much of a series.
Further, the 'threat' that FOM holds over the circuits, that of do it my way or else you won't get a GP, is weakened to a degree by the fact that they don't have a GP and, even if they did, it would cost them more than they get back. I was a bit surprised by the number of empty grandstand seats for the Spanish GP.
The FiA and FOM would be aware of the many case stateds that have come out in recent years. It is almost as if the EU wants to encourage lawyers. Whilst nothing is set in stone when it comes to laws - such a standard would negate the need for expensive lawyers and that would suit no one, or at least no one who make the rules - there would be little to suggest that 'exclusive' is something of a non word in the EU.
Compromise is the name of the game I suppose and a new series would be something of a gamble at a time when money isn't slopping around. But Mosley has to take care. A number of teams have said precisely what they want and justified their demands. If these are ignored because Mosley thinks he's in a strong position then the situation could go to silly levels. Some teams will sign up on the 29th if that's what Mosley demands. But what if five teams don't? Wh ilst Eccs and Mosley say they are having to use water cannon for crowd control against the overwhelming number of new teams wanting a bit of the action for 2010, would they still want to be associated with a series without Ferrari and the other big teams? It's one thing to say you've got enough for a grid of 26, but if five go, sixteen is not much of a series.
Jungles said:
flemke said:
It's not to be overlooked that the FIA operate EuroNCAP, on which all the carmakers depend for safety ratings.
Huh? The FIA is merely a member organisation and has a representative role for some motoring clubs. Max Mosley used to be chairman, but his tenure ended in 2004.EuroNCAP is just a conglomeration of government transport authorities, national motoring clubs (represented by ADAC and FIA), and industry groups. Its test centres are operated by a variety of organisations. You can't get much more independent than EuroNCAP.
Jungles said:
flemke said:
They have exclusive contracts with most of the "best" (in the commercial sense) circuits.
I wonder what this means exactly? Does FOM have contracts with the manufacturers not to race on those circuits except for F1 purposes?As flemke has said, Bernie/Max hold most of the cards when it comes to controlling any F1 series. Inevitably however, lacking the elixir of youth, both are approaching the end of their reign. How long they can hold on is the real undercurrent behind most of the current machinations. Look forward to ten years from now and it is easy to see the global recession over and the money making machine that is F1 back to full strength. Who controls it will be an arguably more exciting contest than anything that happens on the track.
As it stands, it seems that Ferrari continues to hold the whip hand amongst the teams - what it does matters to Bernie big time. How good is Luca at poker? Given his industrial experience, I wouldn't bet against him. I also wouldn't bet against him acting upon pure self interest.
The only area where Bernie/Max hold few if any cards is the USA. Ferrari's largest market, where 26% of their cars are sold. Has Luca got the balls to spend a few years in the ALMS in order to precipitate the inevitable changes to FIA FOM and FOA? Sadly I doubt it, but one can live in hope.
As it stands, it seems that Ferrari continues to hold the whip hand amongst the teams - what it does matters to Bernie big time. How good is Luca at poker? Given his industrial experience, I wouldn't bet against him. I also wouldn't bet against him acting upon pure self interest.
The only area where Bernie/Max hold few if any cards is the USA. Ferrari's largest market, where 26% of their cars are sold. Has Luca got the balls to spend a few years in the ALMS in order to precipitate the inevitable changes to FIA FOM and FOA? Sadly I doubt it, but one can live in hope.
Edited by Leithen on Monday 11th May 11:26
flemke said:
Jungles said:
flemke said:
They have exclusive contracts with most of the "best" (in the commercial sense) circuits.
I wonder what this means exactly? Does FOM have contracts with the manufacturers not to race on those circuits except for F1 purposes?stemll said:
flemke said:
Jungles said:
flemke said:
They have exclusive contracts with most of the "best" (in the commercial sense) circuits.
I wonder what this means exactly? Does FOM have contracts with the manufacturers not to race on those circuits except for F1 purposes?flemke said:
stemll said:
flemke said:
Jungles said:
flemke said:
They have exclusive contracts with most of the "best" (in the commercial sense) circuits.
I wonder what this means exactly? Does FOM have contracts with the manufacturers not to race on those circuits except for F1 purposes?This would seriously damage the tracks revenue and would force any breakaway series to leave many if not all of the current F1 circuits.
There is no chance of F1 without the FIA.
Although there would be some benefits of moving away from FIA control the disadvantages would be huge.
Like it or not the teams are stuck with the FIA.
Edited by Holst on Monday 11th May 20:05
Holst said:
Also the FIA can threaten to withdraw all there other races and series from a participating at a circuit should they allow a breakaway "F1" series to race.
This would seriously damage the tracks revenue and would force any breakaway series to leave many if not all of the current F1 circuits.
There is no chance of F1 without the FIA.
Although there would be some benefits of moving away from FIA control the disadvantages would be huge.
Like it or not the teams are stuck with the FIA.
I'm not so sure.This would seriously damage the tracks revenue and would force any breakaway series to leave many if not all of the current F1 circuits.
There is no chance of F1 without the FIA.
Although there would be some benefits of moving away from FIA control the disadvantages would be huge.
Like it or not the teams are stuck with the FIA.
The FiA is subject to the law as much as any other institution and any action which can be seen as abuse of a monopoly position is illegal. If Gates has been hauled before the courts, no one is safe.
The FiA is just a regulator and as such runs certain formulae. It regulates, amogst others, the WRC, WTCC, GT, as well as F1. It doesn't quite have a complete monopoly as the ACO does what it wants although it is under the unbrella of the FiA. At least according to the FiA but not, i would assume, the ACO. The FiA recognises the le mans series.
If there is a breath of suspicion that those circuits which run,for instance, an ACO version of F1 were in some way penalised by not being favoured by WTCC or GT racing then, given the resentment of many European manufacturers against the FiA, I would suggest that its monopoly position might well come under scrutiny. It is, after all, international at a time when many manufacturers feel that self protection is called for.
There is a degree of resentment against the FiA for the way it has 'run the WRC into the ground' according to some as well as the lack of support given to GT racing. I was in the pits for one GT race where the team owner ranted on about lack of advertising for some time. he will look to Le mans next month with some degree of envy. I know nothing about the WTCC but I bet they feel the FiA should do more for them, as well as the European TCC.
The FiA exists because it is useful. If it starts to become less so then there are many out there who might feel they could benefit from a bite out of the carcase.
I have no doubt the FiA will remain. Indeed its core 'business' is not motor racing. On its website it says: The FIA is also the governing body for motor sport worldwide. (My italics.)
All motoring clubs refer to the FiA at the moment although there was considerable resentment against Mosley for his debauched activities in the cellar, his refusal to do the right thing and retire, and the nature of the so-called 'vote of confidence'. There was talk then of America pulling out, whatever that means. I think that would include pulling its funding. Germany wasn't too happy and might restrict its support, especially if the rumours of threats and intimidation are true. The various car manufacturing countries pay the bulk of the FiA's running costs but have limited voting rights. It makes you wonder if they feel hard done by. With American car manufacturers going bust those that remain have to look for value for money. Some chap whose brother runs some kind of money making shrubbery, from a country that has no car manufacturing business not motor racing heritage, said that it was he who controlled the majority of the votes that kept Mosley in power. I bet that went down well with the Americans. It didn't go down too well with the Caravan Club in this country which pays money to the FiA but can't vote.
You might remember that in January Mosley was forced into saying that the FiA would 'recognise' any breakaway series. I wondered at the time if this was as a result of threats made at the earlier embryonic bolt for freedom.
Difficult times are ahead and I don't think the deadline of 29 May will settle much.
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