Discussion
Some of you may have seen a few new topics entered yesterday by Britcar. It would appear that the content, ie 6 hour race ticket deals, drives wanted and available, and competitor grid slot availability was adjudged as "commercial" by those who run this site and therefore not an acceptable use of the site.
I've used this site for many years and I suspect like quite a few others, I promote the site in both conversation and direct advertising terms via stickers on my race and private cars. When it was privately owned we were encouraged to spread the word far and wide, now that it is owned by a large company, it seems that those of us that have supported it over the years are regarded with perhaps less direct enthusiasm then when petrol Ted ruled the roost.
Now, I'm not complaining about the judgement or lack of, what I'm having a moan about is withdrawing the topic without explanation as to why or the simple application of "Topic closed" for they just disappeared.
Come on Pistonheads, get real will you, what Britcar posted was not openly commercial, it was information based for the benefit of those of us that use the Britcar forum. On the other hand, having Pistonhead stickers on my race cars is openly commercial yet I don't withdraw these or ask for a fee for displaying same.
In my view someone applied a rule by the book without fully thinking it through and if it given a re-think then perhaps the paddock at the next Britcar round will not be littered with discarded Pistonhead stickers
I've used this site for many years and I suspect like quite a few others, I promote the site in both conversation and direct advertising terms via stickers on my race and private cars. When it was privately owned we were encouraged to spread the word far and wide, now that it is owned by a large company, it seems that those of us that have supported it over the years are regarded with perhaps less direct enthusiasm then when petrol Ted ruled the roost.
Now, I'm not complaining about the judgement or lack of, what I'm having a moan about is withdrawing the topic without explanation as to why or the simple application of "Topic closed" for they just disappeared.
Come on Pistonheads, get real will you, what Britcar posted was not openly commercial, it was information based for the benefit of those of us that use the Britcar forum. On the other hand, having Pistonhead stickers on my race cars is openly commercial yet I don't withdraw these or ask for a fee for displaying same.
In my view someone applied a rule by the book without fully thinking it through and if it given a re-think then perhaps the paddock at the next Britcar round will not be littered with discarded Pistonhead stickers
I asked for the Britcar forum to be started all those years ago back in the late 1800`s when you were in your early 40`s Rod.
After initially criticising this and other forums, their contributors and many of the threads created Britcar the company - or whatever it`s called these days
, has now become a regular contributor with many of those posts relating to promotional topics, especially ones they themselves start.
I think it`s a good thing they are on here as for many it`s the only way they can address issues in a manner where there is some sort accountability because the words stay on view for ever. It does mean though that there is always going to be a bit of advertising going on. Possibly the answer is to charge Britcar a monthly fee to cover any advertising that might benefit them, spaces available, entry fees etc, etc.
I would dearly love to see a similar community like this one for the GT Cup because it is a wonderful focal point for photos, banter, and general news and allows competitors the chance to let off steam, build relationships, share a bit of expertise and so on and I`m sure Marc would consider it beneficial. If nothing else there is a cost associated with creating and running a forum and that would go some if not all the way to justifying any spend.
Haymarket and the "new" Pistonheads are different people to the early pioneers of the site and have a different agenda. Ultimately if they loose their contributors they have nothing, similarly if they see someone getting something for nothing they have to act so as to be seen to be fair.
It`s like me coming on here and telling everyone that 911virgin.com, based just off junction 16 of the M25 was a really great place to buy a used Porsche from and fantastic outright buyers of Porsches. It would be wrong, and I`d never do it (actually we do put in the pot each month so possibly I might be forgiven).
Anyway, hopefully it can be resolved, Britcar realise the benefit Pitonheads brings to the mix and possibly a small monthly consideration smooths the path. It would be a shame if James and the crew felt unable to contribute.
Keep smiling everyone.
Henry
After initially criticising this and other forums, their contributors and many of the threads created Britcar the company - or whatever it`s called these days
, has now become a regular contributor with many of those posts relating to promotional topics, especially ones they themselves start.I think it`s a good thing they are on here as for many it`s the only way they can address issues in a manner where there is some sort accountability because the words stay on view for ever. It does mean though that there is always going to be a bit of advertising going on. Possibly the answer is to charge Britcar a monthly fee to cover any advertising that might benefit them, spaces available, entry fees etc, etc.
I would dearly love to see a similar community like this one for the GT Cup because it is a wonderful focal point for photos, banter, and general news and allows competitors the chance to let off steam, build relationships, share a bit of expertise and so on and I`m sure Marc would consider it beneficial. If nothing else there is a cost associated with creating and running a forum and that would go some if not all the way to justifying any spend.
Haymarket and the "new" Pistonheads are different people to the early pioneers of the site and have a different agenda. Ultimately if they loose their contributors they have nothing, similarly if they see someone getting something for nothing they have to act so as to be seen to be fair.
It`s like me coming on here and telling everyone that 911virgin.com, based just off junction 16 of the M25 was a really great place to buy a used Porsche from and fantastic outright buyers of Porsches. It would be wrong, and I`d never do it
(actually we do put in the pot each month so possibly I might be forgiven).Anyway, hopefully it can be resolved, Britcar realise the benefit Pitonheads brings to the mix and possibly a small monthly consideration smooths the path. It would be a shame if James and the crew felt unable to contribute.
Keep smiling everyone.
Henry
Take your point Henry but only to a degree, how are you by the way, trust all is well with you and yours.
Anyway, to get back to the issue, If they don't agree with some of the posts on here as they deem them "commercial" then post up a comment stating this fact and at least offer to discuss the matter, don't just remove the topic as if it never existed. I think that if they looked at the content of those topics carefully, they would be able to see a clear difference between what they were "promoting" and as you say, an advert for a car dealership, the latter being something that should be paid for.
I'm all for due payment where it is fully justified but unlike Haymarket, Britcar are not exactly a major profit making organisation but they do have influence, a quick phone call to James or one of the team whereby the "Pistonhead Logo could appear on the Britcar website or an arrangement to link to the forum would I think be a form of payment that would suit everyone.
Compare/join the markets, simples !!!
No further action seems to have been taken thus far on this or another topic I posted earlier, mind you no comments from them either, so we'll see.
Meanwhile, the Pistonhead stickers have a reprieve, for now anyway
Always got the option of having a word with Mr Verdon-roe, his brother Bobby raced with me many years back and once or twice in one of my cars, well, as they say, It's not always what you know but !!! etc etc, God I hate myself when I play dirty
Anyway, to get back to the issue, If they don't agree with some of the posts on here as they deem them "commercial" then post up a comment stating this fact and at least offer to discuss the matter, don't just remove the topic as if it never existed. I think that if they looked at the content of those topics carefully, they would be able to see a clear difference between what they were "promoting" and as you say, an advert for a car dealership, the latter being something that should be paid for.
I'm all for due payment where it is fully justified but unlike Haymarket, Britcar are not exactly a major profit making organisation but they do have influence, a quick phone call to James or one of the team whereby the "Pistonhead Logo could appear on the Britcar website or an arrangement to link to the forum would I think be a form of payment that would suit everyone.
Compare/join the markets, simples !!!
No further action seems to have been taken thus far on this or another topic I posted earlier, mind you no comments from them either, so we'll see.
Meanwhile, the Pistonhead stickers have a reprieve, for now anyway
Always got the option of having a word with Mr Verdon-roe, his brother Bobby raced with me many years back and once or twice in one of my cars, well, as they say, It's not always what you know but !!! etc etc, God I hate myself when I play dirty
Britcar is most definitely not a charity. It`s a business and as such must pay it`s way just like the rest of us.
Haymarket is a bigger business without a doubt but that doesn`t make them any less deserving of the revenue, providing it`s commensurate with the benefit of course. Not sure you would contra a bespoke thread on pistonheads with a couple of banners on the Britcar site just yet. They`d probably rather have the cash. Just for the moment you understand
As for the way the threads are pulled that`s down to Santa`s Little helpers that "moderate" the various backwaters of the site. See them as you might see a part time volunteer police person. They genuinely want to do what`s right but don`t always see the bigger picture and occasionally lack finesse in the way they go about their business. I was going to liken them to the part time crew at Britcar race meetings but changed my post because I actually think they have a very good way and calm things down but like the pit marshals and weekend staff they are not usually full time Haymarket staff so occasionally make a harsh call.
Anyway hopefully things can be resolved and in no time at all it`s back to business as usual.
Doing very well at the moment. Thanks for asking. In the home stages of a new business venture which is keeping me occupied at the moment. I trust the food at your retirement home has improved. Weren`t you trying to get them to include a few solids on the lunchtime menu
Keep smiling mate.
Henry
Haymarket is a bigger business without a doubt but that doesn`t make them any less deserving of the revenue, providing it`s commensurate with the benefit of course. Not sure you would contra a bespoke thread on pistonheads with a couple of banners on the Britcar site just yet. They`d probably rather have the cash. Just for the moment you understand
As for the way the threads are pulled that`s down to Santa`s Little helpers that "moderate" the various backwaters of the site. See them as you might see a part time volunteer police person. They genuinely want to do what`s right but don`t always see the bigger picture and occasionally lack finesse in the way they go about their business. I was going to liken them to the part time crew at Britcar race meetings but changed my post because I actually think they have a very good way and calm things down but like the pit marshals and weekend staff they are not usually full time Haymarket staff so occasionally make a harsh call.
Anyway hopefully things can be resolved and in no time at all it`s back to business as usual.
Doing very well at the moment. Thanks for asking. In the home stages of a new business venture which is keeping me occupied at the moment. I trust the food at your retirement home has improved. Weren`t you trying to get them to include a few solids on the lunchtime menu
Keep smiling mate.
Henry
Apologies if the decision to remove some overtly commercial posts was done without apparent discussion. To place it in context however, our (volunteer) moderators have a huge volume of these to deal with on a daily basis, and don't have the time to discuss each and every incidence with the person concerned.
As it is, there were a number of these posts in quick succession, the rules on commercial posts are fairly clearly described, and we had a number of reports from other members. The moderator acted correctly in my view, and we'd support them if they acted in the same way under the same circumstances again.
I think that we're actually pretty relaxed about people discussing their businesses on PH such as Henry above, so long as we feel that there's something coming back in return. The main reason why we have these rules is not so that we can protect a few pounds of advertising revenue but more so that the forums don't get completely overrun by nothing but commercial messages. Occasionally that means that genuine contributors fall foul of the moderation stick, but the alternative is a forum completely awash with offers for blue pills, performance enhancers and random kit car shows in the back end of beyond. You'd no more want this than us, I'm sure.
As it is, there were a number of these posts in quick succession, the rules on commercial posts are fairly clearly described, and we had a number of reports from other members. The moderator acted correctly in my view, and we'd support them if they acted in the same way under the same circumstances again.
I think that we're actually pretty relaxed about people discussing their businesses on PH such as Henry above, so long as we feel that there's something coming back in return. The main reason why we have these rules is not so that we can protect a few pounds of advertising revenue but more so that the forums don't get completely overrun by nothing but commercial messages. Occasionally that means that genuine contributors fall foul of the moderation stick, but the alternative is a forum completely awash with offers for blue pills, performance enhancers and random kit car shows in the back end of beyond. You'd no more want this than us, I'm sure.
ummmm!!
Comes down to what is commercial and what isn't, whether it's overt or otherwise has no bearing.
You must therefore view the topics in question as being commercial, ie for the purpose of a trading gain and profit.
I must also assume therefore that you would regard Pistonhead car stickers as commercial for they plainly comply with the above definition.
If this is the case I must review all the different stickers and logo's on my race car in case their presence brings about a mad frenzy of advertisers that would go to any lengths to plaster my car with free advertising decals ranging from blue pills to reversed binoculars designed for small minded, short sighted people
Nothing that wrong with your response my friend, just appears to be a scripted version of the rule book readily applied without critical examination. If you need more mods to deal with the volume of sneaky would be advertisers then co-opt or employ more of them rather then dumb down the system based on overload.
Mediocrity is not a position between high and low, it's a state of mind often found when the desire to improve is outweighed by the lack of incentive so to do.
Don't take my response too seriously, I have a habit of winding people up just for the hell of it, ask Henry !!
Comes down to what is commercial and what isn't, whether it's overt or otherwise has no bearing.
You must therefore view the topics in question as being commercial, ie for the purpose of a trading gain and profit.
I must also assume therefore that you would regard Pistonhead car stickers as commercial for they plainly comply with the above definition.
If this is the case I must review all the different stickers and logo's on my race car in case their presence brings about a mad frenzy of advertisers that would go to any lengths to plaster my car with free advertising decals ranging from blue pills to reversed binoculars designed for small minded, short sighted people
Nothing that wrong with your response my friend, just appears to be a scripted version of the rule book readily applied without critical examination. If you need more mods to deal with the volume of sneaky would be advertisers then co-opt or employ more of them rather then dumb down the system based on overload.
Mediocrity is not a position between high and low, it's a state of mind often found when the desire to improve is outweighed by the lack of incentive so to do.
Don't take my response too seriously, I have a habit of winding people up just for the hell of it, ask Henry !!
Racing Rod said:
ummmm!!
Comes down to what is commercial and what isn't, whether it's overt or otherwise has no bearing.
You must therefore view the topics in question as being commercial, ie for the purpose of a trading gain and profit.
I must also assume therefore that you would regard Pistonhead car stickers as commercial for they plainly comply with the above definition.
If this is the case I must review all the different stickers and logo's on my race car in case their presence brings about a mad frenzy of advertisers that would go to any lengths to plaster my car with free advertising decals ranging from blue pills to reversed binoculars designed for small minded, short sighted people
Nothing that wrong with your response my friend, just appears to be a scripted version of the rule book readily applied without critical examination. If you need more mods to deal with the volume of sneaky would be advertisers then co-opt or employ more of them rather then dumb down the system based on overload.
Mediocrity is not a position between high and low, it's a state of mind often found when the desire to improve is outweighed by the lack of incentive so to do.
Don't take my response too seriously, I have a habit of winding people up just for the hell of it, ask Henry !!
Not taken seriously, and not scripted either. I meant every word that I said, and I made them all up on the spot Comes down to what is commercial and what isn't, whether it's overt or otherwise has no bearing.
You must therefore view the topics in question as being commercial, ie for the purpose of a trading gain and profit.
I must also assume therefore that you would regard Pistonhead car stickers as commercial for they plainly comply with the above definition.
If this is the case I must review all the different stickers and logo's on my race car in case their presence brings about a mad frenzy of advertisers that would go to any lengths to plaster my car with free advertising decals ranging from blue pills to reversed binoculars designed for small minded, short sighted people
Nothing that wrong with your response my friend, just appears to be a scripted version of the rule book readily applied without critical examination. If you need more mods to deal with the volume of sneaky would be advertisers then co-opt or employ more of them rather then dumb down the system based on overload.
Mediocrity is not a position between high and low, it's a state of mind often found when the desire to improve is outweighed by the lack of incentive so to do.
Don't take my response too seriously, I have a habit of winding people up just for the hell of it, ask Henry !!
Yep, it does come down to our judgement about what is and isn't commercial. Given that the post was advertising a special offer on advertising pages in the Britcar programme (full page colour for £480, just in case anyone is interested) then I'd say that the moderator's judgement that it was a commercial post was spot on. Now you might argue that you were just trying to cover the costs of producing the programme but, honestly, that isn't my concern. It was advertising for real money, pure and simple.
That is unless I'm missing something, "my friend"?
Stuart said:
Yep, it does come down to our judgement about what is and isn't commercial. Given that the post was advertising a special offer on advertising pages in the Britcar programme (full page colour for £480, just in case anyone is interested) then I'd say that the moderator's judgement that it was a commercial post was spot on. Now you might argue that you were just trying to cover the costs of producing the programme but, honestly, that isn't my concern. It was advertising for real money, pure and simple.
That is unless I'm missing something, "my friend"?
It was fine until I got to the final comment.........That is unless I'm missing something, "my friend"?
Must resist, don't do it Rod, don't say it, "unless he's missing something" he says, oh please, it's too tempting it really is, NO, stop I can't stand it.
I have got to stop logging in on this site, it's turning me into Victor Meldrew, time for bed for God's sake.
Just spent a few days in the Pistonheads "Parc ferme" a sort of post topic investigation area, having a private chat with the powers that be.
They are adament that the action taken against the Britcar posts were correct, or in particular the action against the one post relating to the sale of advertising space in the Britcar 6 hour race program.
I now accept that they were probably justified in pulling that particular topic based on their commercial advertising rules, and those alone, however, this doesn't explain why the other topics also got the same treatment and although I raised this, no reply was forthcoming.
As you can see, I am now released from parc ferme, mind you, three days is not bad, still quicker then when racing at Spa
So, that's the fun and games over on this particular matter, and based on the 3/4 topics removed, they were justified in pulling one of the topics, so depending on how many were posted originally, as I'm not 100% sure, they were definitly between 25% and 33% right.
I guess the Pistonhead stickers can stay on the cars, although strickly speaking they should now have up to 75% removed but I don't think it would look good reading as ....... "blank"........... heads.
They are adament that the action taken against the Britcar posts were correct, or in particular the action against the one post relating to the sale of advertising space in the Britcar 6 hour race program.
I now accept that they were probably justified in pulling that particular topic based on their commercial advertising rules, and those alone, however, this doesn't explain why the other topics also got the same treatment and although I raised this, no reply was forthcoming.
As you can see, I am now released from parc ferme, mind you, three days is not bad, still quicker then when racing at Spa
So, that's the fun and games over on this particular matter, and based on the 3/4 topics removed, they were justified in pulling one of the topics, so depending on how many were posted originally, as I'm not 100% sure, they were definitly between 25% and 33% right.
I guess the Pistonhead stickers can stay on the cars, although strickly speaking they should now have up to 75% removed but I don't think it would look good reading as ....... "blank"........... heads.
So a Britcar forum where we can't discuss Britcar matters then. I don't think there was anything wrong with those posts to be honest - they were afterall relating directly to the championship that this forum is about.
Bit of give and take needed here I think, especialy with the volume of PH stickers etc. on a lot of the Britcar entries!!!
Cheers
M
Bit of give and take needed here I think, especialy with the volume of PH stickers etc. on a lot of the Britcar entries!!!
Cheers
M
Icarus_ said:
So a Britcar forum where we can't discuss Britcar matters then. I don't think there was anything wrong with those posts to be honest - they were after all relating directly to the championship that this forum is about.
Bit of give and take needed here I think, especially with the volume of PH stickers etc. on a lot of the Britcar entries!!!
Cheers
M
Quite so, a point I was endeavoring to make when discussing the matter with the new Haymarket executives, it would seem however that the rules and regulations that they apply, no doubt based on many years of experience in running sites like this, Bit of give and take needed here I think, especially with the volume of PH stickers etc. on a lot of the Britcar entries!!!
Cheers
M
take precedence.It's easy to forget that this site is indeed someones business, and they are entitled to run it the way they wish to, they have been very successful over the years so who are we to say they are not running things in the correct way.
It's also true that the current owners didn't start the site, so really their experience in running something like Pistonheads is limited come to think about it as all they did was buy in to the concept with money they made from running a fair number of magazine titles, their success in this field being based on circulation and advertising.
To be fair to them, they are worried that if they allow the likes of Britcar to "advertise", their words not mine, then every Tom, Dick and Harry will start posting adverts for everything from "Blue Pills" as they put it, to lawnmowers.
I can see what they are getting at but in my book it is a bit like spotting a solitary cloud on the horizon and getting out the raincoats and umbrellas whilst all around are still enjoying the sunshine
I had said that I wasn't going to respond to this subject further, but as you say, the more you think about it the less sense it makes
Without wishing to further provoke debate on this subject, since Rod seems unprepared to let it go I think it's worth being clearer about what has happened and why:
- A moderator removed a number of posts advertising Britcar. I can understand the frustration at ticket offers being removed, but ultimately we have to be even handed in our moderation or we'd be in chaos in no time. Quite how anyone could criticise a moderator for removing an invitation to buy advertising in the Britcar programme is beyond me, but I think I've probably explained this as openly as I can.
- The comments about our experience of running a site like this (albeit that we're not far from 3 years into Haymarket's ownership) are irrelevant given that the moderator concerned predates us by many years and was applying rules we inherited from Ted. Anyone who tries to suggest otherwise is kidding themselves.
To be clear: the moderator concerned would act in exactly the same way under the same circumstances, and he'd get our full support for doing so. We have rules of posting that are for the good of the whole site, and I see no reason why they shouldn't apply here as they do anywhere else.
Cheers
Stuart
- A moderator removed a number of posts advertising Britcar. I can understand the frustration at ticket offers being removed, but ultimately we have to be even handed in our moderation or we'd be in chaos in no time. Quite how anyone could criticise a moderator for removing an invitation to buy advertising in the Britcar programme is beyond me, but I think I've probably explained this as openly as I can.
- The comments about our experience of running a site like this (albeit that we're not far from 3 years into Haymarket's ownership) are irrelevant given that the moderator concerned predates us by many years and was applying rules we inherited from Ted. Anyone who tries to suggest otherwise is kidding themselves.
To be clear: the moderator concerned would act in exactly the same way under the same circumstances, and he'd get our full support for doing so. We have rules of posting that are for the good of the whole site, and I see no reason why they shouldn't apply here as they do anywhere else.
Cheers
Stuart
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